Kyoto Protocol and the Bush Administration

[Donut]

Originally posted by caleb: Welcome to yank bashing thread 2: bash with a vengeance

This is NOT a yank bashing thread Caleb and your comments do not take this debate forward. Have you any constructive comments to make?

BTW - welcome to the board Tracey.
BTW2 Tracey is not speaking for all Europeans in her post.

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Save Chip - Don't let Sarah win!
Official Titterer of the Laughing Hyenas

[imperial dwarf]

Dunno whether somebody already said it, but that's my two cents :
The refusal of the kyoto treaty has one main reason: political survival of Bush and his party. Reducing the output of CO2 would mean increased costs for the industry and that, in connection with the latest indicators on a recession in the USA, would cost quite some jobs and eventually slow down economy and even deepen the beginning crisis. Certainly the voters would remember that fact in the next elections, especially since it seems to me from far Germany that a good part of the Amerian population is more interested in themselve and their present situation than a far of future or anything happening outside the borders of their country(sorry if anyone out there feels insulted. please, correct me if i'm wrong). Politics always mirrors the will of the population at the end. So you can't really blame dubya for it, because he's only doing what he thinks furthers his OWN interests best, quite human. if the population of the USA stood behind kyoto than he certailny would sign the treaty.

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reality is for those not smart enough to see the truth!!!!!

[Donut]

In September last year, in a campaign speech in Michigan, Bush promised that if elected, he would pass legislation to force power plants to reduce the emissions of the four main dangerous gasses by 40%. I wonder how many voters in Florida did that statement sway. His administration now claim he misread the document He also promised to ratify the Kyoto Protocol which had already been signed by the US under Clinton.

The White House recently asked for guidance on global warming from the foremost body of scientists in the US, the National Academy of Sciences. The NAS rejected the scepticism of the Bush administration about the problem. They believed it to be a serious problem, at least partly man-made. I appreciate that the increase in global temperature can be partly attributed to cyclical changes in world climate.

So why won’t he ratify the Kyoto treaty? The ‘Toxic Texan’ is under the thumb of big industries in the US – in particular Big Oil and King Coal. Of the $14 billion contributed to the last election by oil and gas companies $10 billion went to Republican candidates. It’s now payback time. Members of the Bush administration have strong links with the oil industry, including Vice-president Dick Cheney and the Commerce Secretary Don Evans. Even the US ambassador in London, Doug Farish, is an oil magnate from Texas.

As has been stated the US makes up 4% of the world population and creates 25% of the gases which cause pollution. Yes, it’s true that Kyoto puts the onus on the developed western world to take the lead in reducing emissions, whereas China will not do so, but is up to us to make a start.

The most frightening thing that George W said was ‘I will not take action that is not in the interests of the American people’. At face value there is nothing wrong with that. We expect our governments to act in our interests, but does that mean that countries should take (or fail to take) actions that will have a profound effect on the rest of the world?

But does it really matter to the average American that 80 million people in Bangaldesh will have to relocate their homes? Does it matter that parts of Bangladesh, Indonesia, The Maldives, Pakistan, Thailand, Mozambique, Nigeria, Senegal, Gambia, Egypt, Argentina, Brazil will disappear? Even parts of England and the Netherlands will be under water. Closer to home areas on the Gulf of Mexico will be flooded. Personally I think the average American does care. Successive opinion polls have shown that the environment is becoming a major issue for voters and it may be that Bush has made a rod for his own back.

I always felt that George W would have problems in his dealings with the rest of the world because he had absolutely no experience in foreign affairs. He is treating the rest of the world as if it were his ranch. Kyoto, Son of Star Wars – the US is so powerful he doesn’t need to consult the rest of us so he doesn’t.
Still - I'll be a long time dead before any of this happens.

George W Bush - The man who bought power and sold the world.


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Save Chip - Don't let Sarah win!
Official Titterer of the Laughing Hyenas

[This message has been edited by Donut (edited 06-19-2001).]

[tracey]

Originally posted by Gaelic: (Gaelic grabs the steering wheel of this thread and jerks it into another lane!) I think the people who throw cigarette butts out their car windows and drop them while walking are as annoying as the people who park themselves outside the entrances to buildings and smoke so you are forced to walk through a cloud of that crap to enter the building. These are the same folks who light up while in line outside the movie theater, at a fair, etc. I think that is SOOOOO disrespectful of everyone else.

Why? It's a choice. ok. you may not wish to be locked in a small airless room full of smokers, but passing them as you enter a building - i think you could probably cope with that without risking too much. i hate the smell of macdonalds burgers, car exhaust fumes and rotting polution in general - these are all areas that i have very little control over even though the smell from all of them is rather pervasive and deeply objectionable - as we live in a moderately free society(s) we should all attempt to keep cool about small matters and fight to within an inch of our lives for the big ones.

Incidentally, you should visit Holland, France and Italy they all smoke and they don't have a problem with it - a non-smoker would consider it the height of rudeness to ask someone to smoke in the garden. interesting how cultures differ, innit?

[tracey]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Errrmmmmm, tracey.... Uh, we ain't THAT different in Europe! And people generally DO prefer the country of their birth! I know I do - I wouldn't really feel safe anywhere else, lol!

Oh, come on. europe and america are absolute poles apart. yes, of course we all prefer to live in a country that is full of familiar 'norms' but, to impose those norms on other nations is - or not to take on board the importance of kyoto is frankly arrogant, stupid and shortsighted. europe discuss, america imposes. since lots of the people in this chat room are american - perhaps a response to renew my faith ( scratch that, it was never there) in that country would be interesting. must dash, going out to dinner at lime and chilli restaurant in moseley, birmingham, england with lovely friend. catch up later. come on, you lot, stand up for yourselves!

[Sir Taliesin]

A Prediction:

In the next Presidential Election, Dubya will not be defeated because of his environmental stance. He will be defeated because the economy isn't doing well.
He will also not be elected because of his environmental stance. It will be because the economy is doing well.

Donut, being an American, I hate to say it, but half our population doesn't even know the places you have mentioned, little alone where they are located.
Take Caleb for a minute (actually take him for several years, please!). I doubt seriously that he could point to those places on a globe. The odds are against it (especially in Calebs case... maybe not the best example). People here think with their pocket books when it comes to voting. Had the economy not gone sour in the last half of 2000, it would have been Gore who wasn't pushing the Kyoto Treaty. And that's exactly what would have happened too. He would have let it wither on the vine. Trust me on that one. I live in his home state. I wouldn't trust him to say the sky is blue.

Also another thing. Dubya can only support the Kyoto Treaty. Congress must ratify it. Even if he had supported it, I am not sure there are enough votes in congress to ratify it.

I think that if Europe is so hot on the Kyoto Treaty, and I know you all are here, then they need to take the lead in this one and ratify it. My pessimism for Government tells me that they won't though. I think the members of the European Union will use Dubya's not supporting the Kyoto Treaty as a reason to not ratify it themselves. I also think that they will be hiding behind Dubya's coat tails when they do. That way they won't look bad. If you want this signed it will be up to you to keep pressure on your governments to make this happen. Then maybe we will go along if the rest of the world does it.

I'm not saying this to hurt anyones feelings, I just think that is political reality.

Also I agree with Caleb on his last statement. To a certain extent this is US bashing thread number 2. Sorry that's just how I feel. BTW I support the concept of the Kyoto Treaty, but I want to see specific proposals. I haven't seen any yet.

Tracie, I too welcome you to this board. Hope you enjoy it!

BTW Caleb, I was just kidding!
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Sir Taliesin



If they take my gun can I still use my Axe?

[This message has been edited by Sir Taliesin (edited 06-19-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Sir Taliesin (edited 06-19-2001).]

[tracey]

Originally posted by Donut: This is NOT a yank bashing thread Caleb and your comments do not take this debate forward. Have you any constructive comments to make? BTW - welcome to the board Tracey. BTW2 Tracey is not speaking for all Europeans in her post.

no. of course i'm not. this surely is obvious. however, europe does tend to have a rather suspicious view of america. (check out news, debates, radio and general opinion of people here.) it's not on an individual basis, that would be daft, it's more to do with your governments policies. the feeling that we have over here that america wants to rule the world.... that sort of thing. i don't know about any of you, but i don't want to live in a totally unbalanced political system - currently, there is no one really challenging the american view, no one is saying 'get off' or 'go away' or 'perhaps you should think about this sensibly'. i think england should extricate itself from america and dive straight into europe headfirst. i think it would be much healthier. a viewpoint is not necessarily a 'bashing' it's often a cry for help - i need to know what goes on, how people think, feel and function in a culture so different to my own - fljotsdale can have a moan about it, but it's incredibly different. we just about manage to speak the same language.....sometimes.

anyway, i don't mean to cause offence, i can't be bothered to use smileys and i do enjoy a good debate - no holds barred. i know you lot are not into flaming and insults which is fine(ish) but discussions do need to be pretty free and open in order to get anything out of them. i suppose i'm lax in my view on rules because i'm not particularly sensitive and anything i really haven't got a clue about i won't debate until i do. what i really would be interested in, is to hear from the people who live there. what are your views exactly, and why do hold them? where do they come from? how much have you thought about them? i would nip off and chat on an italian site for a bit, but i think it wouldn't have quite the same polite air about it. ciao.

[caleb]

Originally posted by tracey: Oh, come on. europe and america are absolute poles apart. yes, of course we all prefer to live in a country that is full of familiar 'norms' but, to impose those norms on other nations is - or not to take on board the importance of kyoto is frankly arrogant, stupid and shortsighted. europe discuss, america imposes. since lots of the people in this chat room are american - perhaps a response to renew my faith ( scratch that, it was never there) in that country would be interesting. must dash, going out to dinner at lime and chilli restaurant in moseley, birmingham, england with lovely friend. catch up later. come on, you lot, stand up for yourselves!

Have you considered that your trying to impose YOUR norms on people from another nation? think about it. Ciao BTW sir taliesin I can find the majority of those countrys on a map the ones I cant locate are Senegal, Gambia, bangladesh, and the maldives.... hey 2/3rds is a passing grade

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BOW TO THE BISCUIT KING AND HIS THRONE OF SCONE!!!

I think that hybrid vehicles ought to be subsidized by every govt. and country. How many of you have taken a bus ride in Soulth America, or Mexico..? Could your throat handle the fumes after one day af traveling? Yes I have been to many other countrys as well. Most of them cannot afford to even convert to propane yet talk about greenhouse gases. It is all about money. But I have seen big improvements in my area. Buses are going propane, Coal is being used in a much more proficiant ways, Hybrid cars are being displayed and bought.In my state we have emmision inpections every 2 years, and if your vehicle does not pass your out of luck with that vehicle until it meets the required level. I think that small gasoline powered motors should have these standards also. All around the world. We are all in this.
Conan

[This message has been edited by Conan (edited 06-19-2001).]

[Gaelic]

Ok, once again...

1. Bush favors a reduction in emissions, just not through the "scienceless" numbers Kyoto proposes.

2. Yes some people have said they think the greenhouse effect is just natural, but the Bush administration does not support that belief.

3. Bush want the reduction to match numbers based on science that can be supported by both environmentalists and industry. Sorry, but finances must enter the equation. It is naive to believe otherwise. When that science comes out, the US will make the changes appropriate.

4. There is a difference between "signing" a treaty and "ratifying" a treaty. Clinton signed the treaty which means it can be discussed formally by our legislature. He then came out against it. Don't be fooled, read past page one of the paper.

5. I very glad that the EU has some plan of ratifying the treaty some day in the future. Please let be know when it actually happens, because then I'll believe the EU supports it. Until then, they are doing NO different on Kyoto than the US. He who lives in glass houses...

6. If you think that any politician is out for anything beyond his peosonal political gain, please continue to enjoy your pipe dream. Bush, Gore, McCain, Jeffords, Dashle, Tony Blair, and every tribal chief of the bushmen are the same in that regard. You believe Bush is tied to "big business?" Well, every democrat over here is tied to a union that doesn't even represent its own members. Politicians are about power, not the people. If you forget that, you lose whatever power you had in the system before. Odd that Jeffords the "independant" got a chairmanship when the dems took over, isn't it?

7. I can't possibly see how it is any more rude or uncaring to pitch a cigarette butt out the window than it is to make me walk through a cloud of smoke and make me smell like it all day and have to get my suit cleaned. I don't care if people want to turn their lungs into charcoal briquettes, but they don't need to do it around me or any other non-smoker.



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Gaelic