Is it possible to know anything at all? - Page 6

Ladyzekke · 08-22-2001, 06:22 PM

Used to a slow connection there Yorick?

Your sig is still quite the eneggma I see

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Yorick · 08-22-2001, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ladyzekke:
Used to a slow connection there Yorick?
Your sig is still quite the eneggma I see

eggzactly

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

250 · 08-22-2001, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yorick:
If you dream you are aware. If you hurt you are aware. If one has has one thought, a concious, aware thought, that is proof of existance - even if that existance is purely mental and has no physical entiity. "I" is the awareness capable of thoughts I experience.

Please don't try and tell me you can be aware and not exist. That is a contradiction. You cannot "do" "have" or "feel" anything if you are nothing, and I cannot believe I am writing this! AAAARRRRGGG!

yeah, Yorick, this is one discussion I didn't expect you to participate. this "exist" "not exist" business is lame, though the idea of Matrix is cool

AzureWolf · 08-22-2001, 07:18 PM

I think this arguement is more than believing in a theory but theorising on why why not it could/could not be true.

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"I was born of darkness. My fathers eyes closed before mine opened. I am not of this world or the other, and I have the right to be what I am..."

Djinn Raffo · 08-22-2001, 07:34 PM

The Universe is a living breathing Supreme Trancendent of an Entity and our reality is it's Dream...

Yorick · 08-22-2001, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo:
The Universe is a living breathing Supreme Trancendent of an Entity and our reality is it's Dream...

So sayeth the wise Raffo, according to the gospel of Djinn.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

debiler · 08-22-2001, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo:
The Universe is a living breathing Supreme Trancendent of an Entity and our reality is it's Dream...

Then we can only hope that there is noone to pinch him...

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Calvin the bold

the malt beer lord is in!

Diogenes Of Pumpkintown · 08-22-2001, 10:52 PM

Reading over the many responses on this thread I am pleasantly surprised by the number of ancient greek skeptics here.

The philosophy of that old school held that one could never know for certain the nature of the reality behind appearances, or whether there even was a separate reality behind appearances.

Rather than worry about it one simply acted according to appearances without falling into dogmas about the nature of reality.

This was in sharp contrast, and was developed as a reaction against, the other ancient Greek philosophical schools, which had dogmatic views about the nature of ultimate reality.

Far from being a source of uncertain anxiety, to the ancient skeptics acting according to appearances was liberating -- allowing them total freedom to act according to appearances while freeing them from the constraints of this or that dogma regarding the nature of reality.

My own approach to the questions at hand is exactly that of the ancient skeptics (and from your posts I am hardly alone in this) -- whether I am "ultimately" a brain in a vat or not is unknowable, and also doesn't really matter. I simply act according to appearances without formulating any dogmas about the "true" nature of reality behind those appearances, or whether there even is a reality behind those appearances.

Melusine · 08-23-2001, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moridin:
Ah Mel, never were you considered stupid And you were never asked to believe this theory, I don't and never claimed to. Merely mentioned that it exists. Sheesh!

And for the infallible proof of God's existance...could one not push themselves? This immovable object could be nothing more that a large brick wall...right?

Well, no. You should start at the lowest levels when imagining this. Movement also means the movement of atoms, molecules, etc. To move your leg, a complex of chemistry is going on inside your body. The point is, that if anything needs to be moved before it moves, this immovable mover must transcend all the laws of physics, therefore being (a) God.

Heh....I don't believe in the theory of the Immobile Mover, but it is hard to disprove.

To the person who said that Cogito ergo sum does not hold because one cannot define 'I' or even 'to be' (Istaron I believe it was):
That is just petty nitpicking over terms. Why can't you define I? Your thoughts are a sure sign of the fact that there is an individual thinking them. You can't do that off as being a possible delusion, dream or something. Do you believe your thoughts aren't real?

I agree with Dio that in the end it does not matter whether we are really brains in vats, but even when it doesn't matter, I refuse to accept the possibility. The world is SO real, so tangible, so intense....how can't it be true?? I KNOW I exist. I can't believe that my thoughts, the things I create (such as music, words on paper, etc.) are part of a large virtual reality of some kind. Exactly because we experience all this, it is made real.

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Melusine, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, the LH,
the HADB and the SPAE(Society for the
Prevention of Acronym Extinction) &
Official Entertainer Elf of the BG2 Bar

Your voice is ambrosia
Amy Brown Fantasy Art

Sharpedge · 08-23-2001, 07:29 AM

I hate to stick my oar in so late in the day. This thread took me a while to read and is certainly very thought provoking. I'm no student of philosophy, but the last time I had this argument was in a pub (with a philosophy student actually). The argument went on and on, round and round in circles and we became more and more inebriated. Though I conceded that I could not entirely prove the world around me actually existed, I would not admit that *I* did not exist. He said that the only consciousness one could actually prove was ones own, and every other being one came into contact with could conceivably be merely an extension of ones own consciousness.

Finally, he sat back and asked me to prove to him that I existed. Much to the amusement of everyone around us, I reached over and poured the remainder of my pint glass over his head. We all had a good chuckle, and that was that.

Ultimately, I cannot see how the rest of this universe could possible contained within my own being since there is so much of it I simply cannot comprehend. Nor can I see the validity in the argument that we are all the mental musings of some other life form (unless you're talking about God and creation, but that's another argument) because of my own passionate free will.

Can I prove any of it? Tragically, no. However, as Melusine says (and this I will remember):

Quote:

Originally posted by Melusine:

The world is SO real, so tangible, so intense....how can't it be true?? I KNOW I exist. I can't believe that my thoughts, the things I create (such as music, words on paper, etc.) are part of a large virtual reality of some kind. Exactly because we experience all this, it is made real.

Choose to believe, or choose not to. As for my friend, he still believes that I am an extension of his awareness, and for that, I pity him

(edit: for critical failure on my 'use grammar' check)

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"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.

Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

[This message has been edited by Sharpedge (edited 08-23-2001).]

08-22-2001, 06:22 PM	#51
Ladyzekke Ironworks Atomic Moderator Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Virginia, U.S.A. Age: 57 Posts: 9,005	Used to a slow connection there Yorick? Your sig is still quite the eneggma I see ------------------

08-22-2001, 07:18 PM	#54
AzureWolf 20th Level Warrior Join Date: May 3, 2001 Location: . Age: 40 Posts: 2,762	I think this arguement is more than believing in a theory but theorising on why why not it could/could not be true. ------------------ "I was born of darkness. My fathers eyes closed before mine opened. I am not of this world or the other, and I have the right to be what I am..."

08-22-2001, 07:34 PM	#55
Djinn Raffo Ra Join Date: March 11, 2001 Location: Ant Hill Age: 49 Posts: 2,397	The Universe is a living breathing Supreme Trancendent of an Entity and our reality is it's Dream...

08-22-2001, 10:52 PM	#58
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown Banned User Join Date: August 9, 2001 Location: ... Posts: 694	Reading over the many responses on this thread I am pleasantly surprised by the number of ancient greek skeptics here. The philosophy of that old school held that one could never know for certain the nature of the reality behind appearances, or whether there even was a separate reality behind appearances. Rather than worry about it one simply acted according to appearances without falling into dogmas about the nature of reality. This was in sharp contrast, and was developed as a reaction against, the other ancient Greek philosophical schools, which had dogmatic views about the nature of ultimate reality. Far from being a source of uncertain anxiety, to the ancient skeptics acting according to appearances was liberating -- allowing them total freedom to act according to appearances while freeing them from the constraints of this or that dogma regarding the nature of reality. My own approach to the questions at hand is exactly that of the ancient skeptics (and from your posts I am hardly alone in this) -- whether I am "ultimately" a brain in a vat or not is unknowable, and also doesn't really matter. I simply act according to appearances without formulating any dogmas about the "true" nature of reality behind those appearances, or whether there even is a reality behind those appearances.

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