Kyoto Protocol and the Bush Administration

[Gaelic]

I agree that with or without a treaty, emissions ought to be better managed. I just don't think the Kyoto treaty is the method.

Also, whether anyone likes it or not, the smart way to do this is to involve "big business," not just make demands of them. Yes, it will be tougher. Yes, it will take longer. But it will ultimately make for a much better, long lasting, and cost effective way of solving the problem. However, those assets (they are just that, by the way) will never be brought to bear as long as they are demonized the way the currently are. The environmental extremists are the biggest impediment to real progress because they refuse to accept incrementalist approaches and demand that we all go back to living in grass huts and eating ants (note: this is an extreme example used only to make a point, don't take the grass huts seriously). In making unrealistic demands they serve only to polarize the people involved (ie you are either with us or against us) and erect barriers to real progress. They are the folks that need to be reined in before true solutions are found.

Mike


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Gaelic

[Neb]

Until someone comes up with a better treaty(Which could take several years) the Kyoto treaty is still best we have(I think).

[Moridin]

Gaelic--I totally agree with you! The extremists are only a hinderance to progress. They want a short-term fix and they want it now! They are unwilling to accept that things take time.....I also hate that the extremists don't have any of their own solutions to anything. They are keen on bashing others ideas, but asked what their solution would be they all of sudden can't find their voices!

I think this is an issue that trancends political lines. There are politicians of every party in the pockets of big business and until a way is found to detach the two, we are always going to be at a stand-still on environmental policy.

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Ever wonder if illiterate people get the full effect from alphabet soup?

[Neb]

Moridin, whenever you want something to be changed, do you always have the solution?

[Fljotsdale]

I watched a very interesting program on tv this evening about greenhouse gasses.

apparantly, only around one third to one half (I forget the exact figure) of green house emmisions ar actually to be found in the atmosphere. Scientist wanted to know where the rest of it had gone and what the implications were.
To cut a long story short, the co2 'sink' turns out to be the Amazon forest. It is absorbing the co2 at a phenomenal rate and is producing more growth than it should be as a consequence of co2 'fertilisation'. The more growth, the less greenhouse gasses in the air...
Sounds good, huh?
TOO good.
I can't remember the exact process, but when it reaches a natural cut-off point, this forest WILL GIVE UP ALL THE EXCESS co2 RAPIDLY, thus causing a sudden acute rise in global temperature (They have evidence of this happening in the past). The program estimated the time this would happen to be around 2050 (or was it 2150? Not sure, but I think 2050).
Of course, there are other factors involved, (us, for one) so if may not happen that way if we take steps to cut our emmissions...
Good luck, you guys. I'll be dead by then...

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[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 06-17-2001).]

[Moridin]

Originally posted by Neb: Moridin, whenever you want something to be changed, do you always have the solution?

I don't bitch about it if I don't!


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Ever wonder if illiterate people get the full effect from alphabet soup?

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Moni Moni, I really agree with such a lot of what you say! But I guess you are not so aggressive a personality as I am. I won't say 'die' till I'm dead! I'm sure the same is true of you as well, in most things! I'm also pretty sure you are right to be negative about the prospects of changing things - but, hell, I CAN'T be! This planet is worth more than any damned politicians or capitalist interests, and humanity and everything else has to LIVE here. I don't want such a glorious place to fizzle out like a damp squib when MY little push may - it just MAY! - help do something to stop it! As for going Nyah, nyah - I expect you would actually join in the chorus!

I would call my views more realistic than negative.

I have lived at both ends of the spectrum in this country albeit I have never been totally homeless, having to live on the streets or out of a car. You can believe me when I tell you that the rich are more likely to find an ear.

I could have been one of the power moguls with a fat bank account if I wanted to hurt the little people while I got there. I wouldn't then and I won't now.

Sorry, but I won't wear rose colored glasses to look at the situation. Until you have lived in America you can't stand behind any argument with me on the subject.

I do participate on a local level in order to do what I can.
Nothing negative in that.


Moni

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[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Moni: I would call my views more realistic than negative. I have lived at both ends of the spectrum in this country albeit I have never been totally homeless, having to live on the streets or out of a car. You can believe me when I tell you that the rich are more likely to find an ear. I could have been one of the power moguls with a fat bank account if I wanted to hurt the little people while I got there. I wouldn't then and I won't now. Sorry, but I won't wear rose colored glasses to look at the situation. Until you have lived in America you can't stand behind any argument with me on the subject. I do participate on a local level in order to do what I can. Nothing negative in that. Moni

True, Moni. I have never lived in America, so I don't understand the mind-set. And doing what you can is certainly not negative. I was not implying that you were actually a negative person in general, Moni! You just seemed to have a negative view on just this one point. However, I accept the correction that you are realistic! My apologies.
F.

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[WOLFGIR]

Hmm, well even if we don´t start now, anything that helps to improve or at least not expand the polution will help. Earth and environment heals slow. Also it is hurt slow too. The greenhouse effects are the sum of decades past. To come to an agreement that is worldwide is the best solution one can have.

I also believe that the economy can´t rule this one through. Egoistic money thinking will lead to future generations suffereing. Unfortunatley the world isn´t a big happy fluffy place, too many 3:rd countries are more soncerned with having food for the day and to survive. We have so much trouble in countries that are so basic to them that they think that our environmental ideas are luxury thinking. We have to go in there and help to develope thoose countries to take the step away from powerty and starvation before we make demands from them, but they in another aspect, has to be willing to helpo out for the help we give, we can´t neglect it, cause if we do.. there maybe won´t be a problem to eat anymore, but to breathe...

All in all, it´s a very big and difficult matter at hand here. Alot od people has their ideas of how to do it, and to reach a globel decision, even a small one, is a giant step in this matter, but we also have to see all the other problems at hand, since they also make troubles as we go along.

Hopefully, steps will be taken soon, cause every day is essential.

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Yawning lazywolf dreaming about nice little fairies...zzzzz

[Billikins the Bold]

Originally posted by Moridin: Gaelic--I totally agree with you! The extremists are only a hinderance to progress. They want a short-term fix and they want it now! They are unwilling to accept that things take time.....I also hate that the extremists don't have any of their own solutions to anything. They are keen on bashing others ideas, but asked what their solution would be they all of sudden can't find their voices!

If you think that the Kyoto treaty is an "extremist" position you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

As to extremists not having any solutions of their own, well thats not exactly true. A large number of solutions have been floated: try doing a quick search on google.com

The trouble with this, is that the later we leave to take action, the more drastic the action will be.

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Fear? I know not the meaning of the word. And you can keep that dictionary away from me!