Kyoto Protocol and the Bush Administration

Originally posted by Tracy; thank you. i hope to stay and chat awhile. i do find your acceptance of the death penalty quite disturbing. i am fully aware that people do some pretty extreme things that justify being removed from society for the protection of that society, but to kill them for being mentally not quite right is beyond reason. and to sanction this act because it will saves money is really quite horrific. sorry if this is at all offensive - i've chosen my words quite carefully and i'm therefore communicating in a very gentle and apologetic way which is not my usual self at all. (i'm no bleeding heart liberal.) any society that throws out a high proportion of violent people should probably be investigating the reasons why this occurs.

Well first off I did not say that I am for killing the mentally retarded for crimes they might have commited...the mentally ill...well that depends on how far gone they are and how they got there...some people you can't bring back to anything resembling "normal". Some of these people are outright dangerous to have live in your neighborhood and I can say I know this from experience.

I am not the least bit offended. Please feel free to be yourself.

Take a confessed murderer with solid evidence againt that person proving beyond a reasonable doubt that they are guilty and then tell me if you think this person should be released back into society (where time and time again more people have been murdered at their hands), or a repeat rapist, child molester, etc.
Would you rather your tax dollars be spent to house and feed them when kids in your neighborhood are going hungry and have no heat in the winter?
Would you educate them and take an education away from someone trying to educate themself who lives by moral standards that keep their neighbors safe from harm at their hands but is failing to finish their education because of the cost?
Would you give them books and allow children in poorer areas to go without reading programs and books?
Would you give them weight rooms, cable television and other luxeries that we on the outside must pay top dollar for?
Would you really?! I think it is pretty stupid to allow some people to live. Even the Old Testament says an eye for an eye.
The cost, on average to keep a federal inmate is $30,000.00 a year.
How many people on this board make that that much for working?!
These people are getting this free ride for rape and murder! Their victims could have been related to you!

You are right in the fact that society should investgate why so much violence is being commited.
I think the media is partially responsible...the BBC esp (Benny Hill was the most provacative program on television when I was young!)
and too the general de-moralization of society itself.

Do you have a solution that you could offer the world?


Moni


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You know you all that when the big holes in our atmosphere over the poles were discovered and global warming was given a name, it WAS carbon MONOXIDE that was initailly blamed?!

Do you really trust what the powers that be have turned the excuses into?

This world had forests long before man populated every inch of the planet and there wasn't a problem then was there?

Just something to think about.


Moni

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[John D Harris]

No one said anything about cutting down the jungles! I find it interesting that the jungles produce more greenhouse gases then the industrilized nations. In the spring in the northern Hemisphere its the junlges of Asia. in the spring its the jungles of South America. That is the evidence, not the feeling, or wish, but rather the fact. As for Oxygen there is little transference of Oxygen between the Northern and Southern Hemispheres, due to the patterns of wind and the rotation of the Earth. The largest producer of Oxygen is the oceans.
Here's another for everybody. In the 1930's and 1940's it was warmer in most areas of North America than the 1960's and 1970's. This fact is due to a World wide cooling pattern that started in the late 1940's. (World Book Encyclopedia 1990 edition) It was warming in the 1980's and 1990's. 2000's haven't been around long enough to have much data on the pattern. Sounds like a 50 year pattern of climate, one that is suported by tree rings and ice core samples. There are patterns in climate.
Guess who is donig the most research into alternative fuels? Big Oil and Big Energy. Do you think that they will let the goose that laid the golden egg die before they find another one. Thank God there are some industries learned from the mistakes of the slide-rule industry when calulaters invented.
As for my childern, grand childern, great-grand childern etc. they will be allright until the Lord decides to stop this roller coaster we call life.
The ozone hole was not "dicovered" until we sent a satilite up to look at the poles, until that time there is NO point of referance as to the ozone hole's start.


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"the memories of a man in his old age,
are deeds of a man in his prime"

[Jimbo]

Well, I've lived in United States: Indiana, Texas, New Mexico, and Florida, and have visited too freaking many. I've lived in Republic of Phillipines (Angeles City and Clark Air Force Base), Republic of Panama (Panama City and Howard AFB), Germany (Geilenkirchen, and Geilenkirchen NATO base), Netherlands (Landgraaf), and been up and down and around the world.

One thing I have noticed is that if you can't do the unilateral reduction by ALL countries on green house effects, it ain't gonna work.

Things I to rember,
There is no such thing as 0% polution (even on natural energy there is eventual wear out and disposal of the equipment to gather).
There is no such thing as a free lunch (you may get it free, but someone did pay for it).
Renewable and recyclable may not be allways the cheapest (hard to imagine but it can happen).
Homogenous societies are easier to manage than multi-cultured ones.
Societies with more males than females (ratio of males to females 2+:1) tend to erupte violently.


Now, what could be done?
1. Hydrogen powered cars are great, but the biggest problem comes with distribution of hydrogen (gas) into a tank. Also, the safer way to store hydrogen is by converting it into a solid form stored in blocks (the blocks are slowly heated and the gas is re-released going into the internal combustion engine). This actually is a kinda stumbling block as the world is set up for a distributin system of liquid burning internal combustion engine. A new idea that seems to work is using Alcohol, that is converted to hydrogen in the car engine, and vrrooom, you have a clean burning car. Granted it will require more maitance (alcohol is more violotal on the engine parts), and a slight increase in safety risks from crashes, but over-all it might be the one that would do the trick. It can be distributed by the means of commerce set up in existence allready.

BTW, Shell Oil (Netherlands Company), British Petrolium, and so on, are also in this game of buying and drilling for oil. You all do realize that Bush and US oil companies don't run the world, as most of the oil is controled by OPEC, which is not in Bush's pocket, but wants to keep on getting that allmighty dollar.
Interesting facts on oil companies :

TOP 5 INTERNATIONALLY INTEGRATED PRIVATE AND STATE-OWNED FIRMS

Privately Owned

Company (Stock Symbol – Click for Quote) Country
World Market Share (%)

ExxonMobil (XOM)
United States
17.55

Royal Dutch/Shell (RD)
Netherlands
12.58

BP Amoco (BP)
United Kingdom
11.72

Chevron Texaco (CHV)
United States
6.90

Total Fina Elf (TOT)
France
3.79

State-Owned

Company
Country
Annual Revenues ($ billions)

Saudi Aramco
Saudi Arabia
26.5

PDVSA
Venezuela
25.0

NIOC
Iran
16.5

Pemex
Mexico
14.3

INOC
Iraq
5.2

Sources: http://www.netadvantage.standardandp...p/ogp30301.htm and

http://umi.compustat.com/cgi-mi-doc/

Stock quotes and symbols from: http://cnnfn.cnn.com/

I got that from
http://www.duke.edu/web/soc142/team1/section1.html


Now, wouldn't it be a more international conspiracy 'to keep the homies down' instead of just a Bush and his Texan Oil buddies?

Point is, we do need cars and more specifically we need internal combustion engines. Not everyone lives in a city like London or Amsterdam where you could get by on your bike or public transport. Some are in less developed and more sprawled out than what people would think. Example would be many of the Europeans that come over to the US and think they can do a car driving tour and take in alot. They find out that you can't, as are States can be as big as the countries they left.

Btw, not all Europeans think like the one's on this board, just like not all U.S.er's think the same way. I personally usually hang out with the working class or blue collar workers, and can say that there is all types of people everywhere.

Now, on this treaty, is there a big disadvantage to every nation or just the U.S.? If the treaty is imbalanced then why on earth should we ratify it? Either make it fair, and enforce it for all nations, or get rid of it, and start over.

Either everyone suffers or no one suffers.

[tracey]

in response to all - just trying to get a 'feel'. yes, of course I think kyoto v. good idea. impossible to have a debate in isolation with just personal viewpoint. necessary to refer to other ways of doing things. don't mind arrogance at all - in fact, quite like it. also like people not afraid to speak their minds. so perhaps we shall have nice long gentle clashes? confession - haven't really had time to read much of the earlier postings - kinda feel the moment passes so....have to jump in and respond to something that catches eye in transit. in response to flotsdale don't know how to move the blasted faces - they don't respond to my tender touch!

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[Greadius]

Almost get the feeling you're arguing with Rush Limbaugh here... they are using his arguements like they are fact. Fortunately someone from England dispelled the "Rumenia is the ONLY country to ratify" BS.

Now for that NASA graphic... that NASA graphic is for NATURAL C02 EMISSSIONS.
95% of CO2 Emissions are natural... its the other 5% that are creating the problem. The enviroment can only handle so much... its like the difference between walking around with a 95% full glass and a 100% full glass... try not spilling anything.
Its emissions of CO2 that are not coming from the Ocean or forests that are marked on Kyoto, so that map showing worldwide emisssions is Rush propaganda.
Kyoto is supported by every major scientific foundation except those financed by the Oil industry or Creationism/Flat earth supporters... what makes their word have equal ground?

And I feel the need to say to our curious European allies... THANK you for protesting, W is NOT my president, he'll NEVER be my president... but can anyone explain this opposition to missile defense to me? Granted, I think its a waste of money, but why is it anyone elses business?

[Charean]

Originally posted by Greadius: Almost get the feeling you're arguing with Rush Limbaugh here... they are using his arguements like they are fact. Fortunately someone from England dispelled the "Rumenia is the ONLY country to ratify" BS. Now for that NASA graphic... that NASA graphic is for NATURAL C02 EMISSSIONS. 95% of CO2 Emissions are natural... its the other 5% that are creating the problem. The enviroment can only handle so much... its like the difference between walking around with a 95% full glass and a 100% full glass... try not spilling anything. Its emissions of CO2 that are not coming from the Ocean or forests that are marked on Kyoto, so that map showing worldwide emisssions is Rush propaganda. Kyoto is supported by every major scientific foundation except those financed by the Oil industry or Creationism/Flat earth supporters... what makes their word have equal ground? And I feel the need to say to our curious European allies... THANK you for protesting, W is NOT my president, he'll NEVER be my president... but can anyone explain this opposition to missile defense to me? Granted, I think its a waste of money, but why is it anyone elses business?

Thank You Greadius, you are right. It IS like arguing with Rush. Oddly enough, I know that Rush is well researched, but I also know that he has a talent for spinning the truth to sound the way he wants it. I have never relied on anyone else for factual information, but dittoheads seem not to want to research for themselves. Am I the ONLY one who actually read the treaty?!? If so, then I find this pretty darn sad. I would rather my detractors read it and then argue its validity. I find it difficult to argue well without having the information to back me up.



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Defender for the Light -
Goodness knows there is a lot of Dark out there!! - Where are my matches?!?
Wandering Soul - Finding my life's calling is Bodhisattva
You are what your deep driving desire is; As your deep driving desire is, so is your will; As your will is so is your deed; As your deed is so is your destiny.
The Upanishads

[Donut]

Who's this Rush guy - please enlighten me.

Greadius, you ask what business NMD is of ours. One of your early warning stations will be at Fylingdales in North Yorkshire.

Russia and China are getting nervous. In the newspapers today it is reported that Putin is threatening a 'hectic uncontrolled arms race' with his single warheads being replaced by multiples. If a rogue state wants to bomb you they won't use a missile and risk a huge retaliatory response. They'll plant a bomb on the New York subway or similar.

Sir Taliesin. I'm acutely aware that many Americans are 'geographically challenged' I have been to the US on 12 occasions on holiday. I LOVE the place. I have visited about 22 of the States and my only complaint is that the place is too bloody big to see it all. I've been to Nashville and have visited Memphis four times (although I've never left the bus station I always seem to be passing through. When in Richmond, Virginia I was asked what it was like living on the coast (London is 50 miles inland) With only two exceptions I've always found Americans to be very friendly people. (Just want to let you know I'm not a Yank basher) BTW I noticed that you changed it to 'US' basher



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Save Chip - Don't let Sarah win!
Official Titterer of the Laughing Hyenas

[Moridin]

Charean--

Do you know a web-page with the treaty on it? Any searches I do only pull up newstories, opinion pages, etc....please post a link if you find one

Thanks



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Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.

[Charean]

Originally posted by Moridin: Charean-- Do you know a web-page with the treaty on it? Any searches I do only pull up newstories, opinion pages, etc....please post a link if you find one Thanks

Was going to do that very thing... I have it here somewhere...

Here is one link with the text:
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1997/glo...tories/treaty/

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Defender for the Light -
Goodness knows there is a lot of Dark out there!! - Where are my matches?!?
Wandering Soul - Finding my life's calling is Bodhisattva
You are what your deep driving desire is; As your deep driving desire is, so is your will; As your will is so is your deed; As your deed is so is your destiny.
The Upanishads

[This message has been edited by Charean (edited 06-20-2001).]