Kyoto Protocol and the Bush Administration

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Gaelic: [B 7. I can't possibly see how it is any more rude or uncaring to pitch a cigarette butt out the window than it is to make me walk through a cloud of smoke and make me smell like it all day and have to get my suit cleaned. I don't care if people want to turn their lungs into charcoal briquettes, but they don't need to do it around me or any other non-smoker. [/B]

I'm with ya all the way on this one, Gaelic! Sadly, however, they have rights!
Not duties. Just rights. And much as we might like to feed 'em their own cigarette butts for dinner (well, I would, when they are polluting the air in a restaurant where I'm eating!) it ain't allowed. Sigh!

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[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 06-19-2001).]

[Gaelic]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: I'm with ya all the way on this one, Gaelic! Sadly, however, they have rights! Not duties. Just rights. And much as we might like to feed 'em their own cigarette butts for dinner (well, I would, when they are polluting the air in a restaurant where I'm eating!) it ain't allowed. Sigh!

Yeah, I absolutely agree Fljotsdale. I do think some moderate reforms could be emplaced here though. One thing California has right is that there is no smoking in public buildings (including bars and restaurants). I think we should do that and include one that our military has, which is no smoking within 50 feet of the entrance to a government building. That way smokers can still put nails in their coffins without disturbing the rest of the world as much.



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Gaelic

[tracey]

Originally posted by Moni: For one I have never lived anywhere else...I know here though that I have clean water and good beef. (Among other things) Its not that I approve of everything that goes on here but I do support the death penalty and would like the Govt. to clear out death row for the sake of saving the taxpayer's money and seeing it spent on more appropriate programs, like education and improving the ecological state of our young nation. Welcome to the Forum Tracy! Moni thank you. i hope to stay and chat awhile. i do find your acceptance of the death penalty quite disturbing. i am fully aware that people do some pretty extreme things that justify being removed from society for the protection of that society, but to kill them for being mentally not quite right is beyond reason. and to sanction this act because it will saves money is really quite horrific. sorry if this is at all offensive - i've chosen my words quite carefully and i'm therefore communicating in a very gentle and apologetic way which is not my usual self at all. (i'm no bleeding heart liberal.) any society that throws out a high proportion of violent people should probably be investigating the reasons why this occurs.

[tracey]

i've suddenly got a little man with a sword and things - where did he come from? help...... i don't remember doing that - wibble, hat stand.

i've posted a couple of earlier messages that haven't registered and i can't be bothered to do it all again in the right places, so. why don't people who don't smoke avoid smoking restaurants and other such places. and frankly, if you walk past a person smoking you really have to have a nose as sensitive as a small dog to feel the urge to visit a dry cleaners. hopefully i'll get the hang of pressing differnt buttons in odd places quite soon. it's not like normal email is it? COMPLICATED that's not a shouting message - it's robot voice. it kicks in at slightly stressful moments during the day. anyway have to go to work tomorrow so will slip off to beddy bybyes and read for a bit.

[Charean]

Donut, I agree with you... You are right on.

Gaelic - you are living in Conservative Republican central (right outside Norfolk if I am not mistaken). I don't think Bush was elected fairly and didn't vote for him. I think he is too far in the pockets of the Oil and Coal industries to see what is in front of him. When you said: "1. Bush favors a reduction in emissions, just not through the "scienceless" numbers Kyoto proposes." That got me... by what information do you deem this Scienceless? Have you read the treaty? Try it... you might like it.

Tracey - I think your views of Americans are extreme. Have you ever come here? I lived in Italy for 3 years. Yes, I think Americans are wasteful in general - but there is a growing number here that are doing better. There IS a grass roots uprising of us who are doing what we can to keep our part of the planet cleaner and greener. Bush certainly doesn't speak for all of us any more than your leaders speak for all of you. Not all of us are the big dumb American. In some ways I am liberal (freedom of choice, and enviornmental policies), in others, conservative (closing our borders to illegal immigrants). Think about looking at us as individuals with our own minds and not as a country to be distrusted.

Conan - you said: "I think that hybrid vehicles out to be subsidized by every govt. and country." Right on!! I am TOTALLY with you on this one. It would be well worth our while to put our money to something that will benefit our enviornment rather than give tax breaks to the rich. (Mind you, until recently I was one of those "well off" that Bush was giving a break to - I would rather put the money in social programs!)

One other note - I think it would be an interesting experiment if we could CHOOSE where our tax dollars would go instead of letting Congress spend it. I wonder where the majority of dollars would end up?

As far as the Kyoto treaty... dammit - sign the thing... we need something to reign in our oil industry!!!


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Defender for the Light -
Goodness knows there is a lot of Dark out there!! - Where are my matches?!?
Wandering Soul - Finding my life's calling is Bodhisattva
You are what your deep driving desire is; As your deep driving desire is, so is your will; As your will is so is your deed; As your deed is so is your destiny.
The Upanishads

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by tracey: i've suddenly got a little man with a sword and things - where did he come from? help...... i don't remember doing that - wibble, hat stand. i've posted a couple of earlier messages that haven't registered and i can't be bothered to do it all again in the right places, so. why don't people who don't smoke avoid smoking restaurants and other such places. and frankly, if you walk past a person smoking you really have to have a nose as sensitive as a small dog to feel the urge to visit a dry cleaners. hopefully i'll get the hang of pressing differnt buttons in odd places quite soon. it's not like normal email is it? COMPLICATED that's not a shouting message - it's robot voice. it kicks in at slightly stressful moments during the day. anyway have to go to work tomorrow so will slip off to beddy bybyes and read for a bit.

About the guy with the sword, etc: The more post you do, the higher the 'level' you get in the forums. You started out as a 'welomed new user'. Now you are an 'elite guard'. I'm a green dragon 'cos I've done lots of chatting in here! You too can reach these dizzy heights...

Re: sensitive noses regarding cigarette smoke: One thing smokers do not realise is that tobacco smoke STINKS to high heaven! Smokers don't notice it. Non-smokers can smell it a mile off. Every time I have been in the presence of someone smoking, and can't escape, I have to bath, change my clothes and wash my hair as soon as I get home, 'cos the foul stuff CLINGS to your hair, your skin, clothes... ugh! We don't have specially sensitive noses. It's just that SMOKERS DON'T!

About smilies: I know you said you can't be bothered with them, but they are useful. Sometimes you say things with quite a pleasant attitude, meaning no offense at all - but because people can't see your face they can think you are being nasty. A smilie helps people see your 'face' as it were! And they are easy! There is a 'smilies legend' on the left of the text window. If you click on it you can pick various smilies to express roughly what you mean. They are fun, too!

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[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by tracey: why don't people who don't smoke avoid smoking restaurants and other such places. and frankly, if you walk past a person smoking you really have to have a nose as sensitive as a small dog to feel the urge to visit a dry cleaners.

If you know of any good ones outside of California, let me know. I have quit
eating at my favorite resturant in Knoxville, because they don't have a no smoking section. I don't want to smell it while I'm eating. I didn't use to be this way. I quite smoking some years ago and the older I get the worse it bothers me. The worst kind is when someone lights one up and doesn't smoke it. They just let it burn in an ash tray. uke1:


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Sir Taliesin



If they take my gun can I still use my Axe?

[DawnChaser]

Originally posted by tracey: anyway, i don't mean to cause offence, i can't be bothered to use smileys and i do enjoy a good debate - no holds barred. i know you lot are not into flaming and insults which is fine(ish) but discussions do need to be pretty free and open in order to get anything out of them. i suppose i'm lax in my view on rules because i'm not particularly sensitive and anything i really haven't got a clue about i won't debate until i do. what i really would be interested in, is to hear from the people who live there. what are your views exactly, and why do hold them? where do they come from? how much have you thought about them? i would nip off and chat on an italian site for a bit, but i think it wouldn't have quite the same polite air about it. ciao.

tracey:

You say you do enjoy a good debate, yet you have continually bashed people in this thread for off-topic comments. When will you get around to actually joining the debate topic? Americans ARE different from Europeans (and others), in mind set as well as other areas. That is not the issue. The issue is, what is your stand on the Kyoto Treaty ratification? Let's hear what you think of that, not whether you agree that crashing into someone's car because he threw a cigarette butt out the window is overdoing it, or whether going along with the death penalty makes us monsters.

I welcome your position on the subject, not your continual bashing of those whose position on other matters differs from yours. Those persons you are harassing on here are too nice to set you straight. I am not.

So, do you HAVE a position on the topic of discussion, or shall we discuss my arrogant response to your unnecessary posts?

"Well?!?"

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[This message has been edited by DawnChaser (edited 06-19-2001).]

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by igor782: The USA doesn't put out much co2 here's a picture: You see from the picture that the US is mostly green/blue, which means that the US's emissions are low. Whereas red/black are the highest, which is in South America and Africa. The main site: http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/viewrecord?8086 Here's something else to consider: Subaru makes a sports car called the Impreza WRX. This car features a 2.2L turbocharged 4-cylinder engine that puts out about 280 horsepower, and baby that’s a shitload of horsepower from a 4-cylinder engine. Now this car’s engine has this horsepower rating in every county in the world (Japan, Australia, Europe) except the US, where it mysteriously loses 50 horsepower, dropping to 227 horsepower. Why? Emissions control. [This message has been edited by igor782 (edited 06-16-2001).]

igor782 I was sure hoping that some internet wizard would come up with the images that you did. I've known for years that the WORLD LARGEST producer of CO was those most hallowed rainforests (jungles), lord don't touch them or we are all going to die. Rotting vegatation releases more CO than the fossil fuel burning evil humans. Jungles are part of nature. Nature produces more greenhouse gases than evil man HMMMMMMMMM. (Oh but oil companies are bad, maybe if "big oil" had some furry little rodents running around them. Everybody would be piss'n and moun'n about the rainforrest interests and their infuence on the world's govt.)
As far as the US not doing it's part for good ole mother earth. I'd sure, as Hell is hot, would much rather take a drink of water out of the Mississippi river then the Ganges, Yanze, Rhine or the Thames. (I'd even take a drink from the Hudson river before any of the others I listed) No Kyoto!

Edited out most of the car stuff
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"the memories of a man in his old age,
are deeds of a man in his prime"

[This message has been edited by John D Harris (edited 06-19-2001).]

[Moridin]

Originally posted by John D Harris: igor782 I was sure hoping that some internet wizard would come up with the images that you did. I've known for years that the WORLD LARGEST producer of CO was those most hallowed rainforests (jungles), lord don't touch them or we are all going to die. Rotting vegatation releases more CO than the fossil fuel burning evil humans. Jungles are part of nature. Nature produces more greenhouse gases than evil man HMMMMMMMMM. (Oh but oil companies are bad, maybe if "big oil" had some furry little rodents running around them. Everybody would be piss'n and moun'n about the rainforrest interests and their infuence on the world's govt.) As far as the US not doing it's part for good ole mother earth. I'd sure, as Hell is hot, would much rather take a drink of water out of the Mississippi river then the Ganges, Yanze, Rhine or the Thames. (I'd even take a drink from the Hudson river before any of the others I listed) No Kyoto! Edited out most of the car stuff

So we should cut down all the rainforests? Then what? Produce our own oxygen? The rainforests may be the largest producer of CO but they also the largest producer of oxygen, which last time I looked, is something we need to survive! And the rainforests have been producing CO, CO2 and everything else for billions of years, this is part of the natural cycle of earth, it is in harmony with itself. It is us that disrupt this by 'adding' to the emissions! We should crack down on big oil! We should be conservative on how we use oil and all fossil fuels. Do you think they are going to be around forever? What the hell are you going to do when the oil wells dry up and the coal beds lie empty? I bet you'll be bitching that we didn't spend enough on alternative fuels! So live in your smog filled city, drive your gas guzzling car, and moan all you want about not signing the Kyoto treaty, just don't have any kids, b/c sure as hell their lives are already ruined!!!!!


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Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.