The "China" Crises

[Jimbo]

250
I am gonna ask you to do the same thing. PLEASE go and re-read what I have posted earlier. As for you post above:
"nonesense, nonesense, everyone spies? everyone what?? dude, wake up, and stop excusing yourselves, do you admit US is wrong in this matter? if not, then you have no sense of justice and fairness, and be shamed you are a citizen of united stats.
if chinese pilots "fly on the international water around american coast" you see what Bush government will do. "

My reply, we would do an escort and make sure the Chicom aircraft was outside of the border/airspace, and would not hit there plane. Don't believe me? Let us go look at the past flight records of intercept by the USSR and USA when we did this all the time. Russia would send "Bear" bombers (they are a big 4 engine long range bomber link:
http://www.janes.com/cgi-bin/AT-jane...encesearch.cgi
and we would send up our fighters to do an intercept. Now according to your logic, since they flew within or near our water/air/land/elbowroom space, we should be able to harrass, or shoot them down. That is not how professionals act or conduct ourselvs. There is too much at risk, and think about it, that bomber crew wants to head back to Valadistok, and our boys and girls want to hit the tarmac, head back home to the sweeties, drink a beer or vodka, and have a decent night. Not start WW3 because someone has the notion they can have there claim to water rights way beyond international treaties. Point is we have done this daily, both us and russia since about 1948. We have had our accidents, and you know what? We handled it alot better than you have. Sure we didn't give the equipment back, but it is not right to detain people when you are not at war. And yes we did give the equipment back, allthough it was later.
Now, please tell me when was the last time we (the U.S.) went out and shot down the spyplanes (EC aircraft), or sunk the so called fishing trawler that umm have more gear needed (hey I guess they want a bigger fish)? No, we don't do that, we recpect the international right of freewater and airways. We will not let another country exploit it either. So, I'm calling your bluff, when are we shooting down or sinking the spy boats?

Next part from 250:
"also, dont give me the crap that "China continue to expand, and that is why US plane crashed into chinese plane", hah, very funny, how far is this "spyplane" from US? and how far is this chinese plane? who expanded in reality?? huh?
US had been constantly spying in china, regardless chinese land's property right, regardless chinese people's right, regardless chinese people's feeling. NO ONE owe US a thing int his world, i am telling you. if any, that is a "back off" throwing at US's way.
every country in the world right now is accusing US for what it did. Russia, Hispanic, France, England, numerous east asian countries including Philipine, Thai, Indonisya, Malaysia, areas, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and more! and Us will turn his back on the world then, i suppose?"
First of all what are you talking about expanding? I am not sure at all what you were trying to draw an analogy into. Do you mean that the U.S. is expanding its sphere of influence, and so is China and we collided? Okay, if that is what you meant, it is unavoidable. We are there and we ain't leaving, and we will not leave ourselves vulnerable to exploits and we will maintain the peace in the area to the best that we can do. Once again I will restate, the accident (it is and accident I hope, I don't think the pilot meant to cause his own death and/or the other crews) happened in international water. It is comparable to a dang porche or some other low to the ground car getting in and trying to drive underneath a big semi-trailors flat bed, and then wondering why his car spun out of control when the down wind draft totaly threw him for a loop. As far as the other countries? I have yet to hear any other countries jump up and down on either side. Most will be hypocritical to claim they don't do the same btw (especially the brits, french, canuks, israels, and SK). Btw, Tawian came to our side from the get go, but then again that is gonna happen since both tawian and china are allways bumping heads.

Next part from 250:
"at last, about international laws. that proves the spyplane even more guity. according to international law, if an alian plane is being escouted, he MUST keep flying in one direction until escout out, it MUST NOT turn to other direction, should it do so, the escouting plane has the right to shoot it down.
dude, i think you all have some basic physics knowledge, a fighterplane IS MUCH faster to fly. but, speed is not import in the air, a plane's life is total energy. that is the sum of speed AND height. if a fighter plane flys in low speed, it is easy to lose momentun, and lose control of the plane. to escout a spysplane, which is much slower than fighterplane is very dangerous. it is not easy to manuver because the fighter already lost so many speed.
according to international law, fighter plane MUST stay left behind from the escouted plane, then suppose you are the pilot, WILL YOU CRASH INTO THE SPYPLANE FROM BEHIND??? unless the spyplane make the turn (which is illegal), how can accident happen????
USE YOUR BRAIN!"

Yep, I'm using my brain, here is the link to the UN web page,
http://www.un.org/Depts/los/unclos/closindx.htm
here is the quote from the document, "Every State has the right to establish the breadth of its territorial sea up to a limit not exceeding 12 nautical miles, measured from baselines determined in accordance with this Convention."
Hmm, I see a limit of 12 NM! Not 100 NM, or what ever China claims, claims that are that big will put you in another countires area, and lead to bigger messes, because the other country would have rights up to your beach. Would you want that mess? Would you want your neighbor on the other side to have rights to your beach and water? The 12NM is good for everyone. Sorry, I will not buy into someone saying that it was in China Land/Sea/Water/space.
Now your comments on China being able to escort our plane, well it is unfounded as they were not in China's airspace.
Now to clear up something about the spy plane, I ask you to go and read the Geneva convention (hey did you know that US servicemembers have to, maybe it should be taught all over), and see if the 24 crewmen and women were spies or what status are the. Quote, "CHAPTER II. -- On Spies

Article 29

An individual can only be considered a spy if, acting clandestinely,
or on false pretences, he obtains, or seeks to obtain information in the
zone of operations of a belligerent, with the intention of communicating
it to the hostile party.
Thus, soldiers not in disguise who have penetrated into the zone of
operations of a hostile army to obtain information are not considered
spies. Similarly, the following are not considered spies: soldiers or
civilians, carrying out their mission openly, charged with the delivery
of despatches destined either for their own army or for that of the
enemy. To this class belong likewise individuals sent in balloons to
deliver despatches, and generally to maintain communication between the
various parts of an army or a territory." Hmm, well looks likes the 24 people are not spies. There Aircraft was well marked, and was not in hostile territory, or doing things they can't do. So where is the grounds to hold them? They are not spies, but normal sailors doing there job.
And this part is stumping me, "according to international law, if an alian plane is being escouted, he MUST keep flying in one direction until escout out, it MUST NOT turn to other direction, should it do so, the escouting plane has the right to shoot it down."
Here is a link to NORAD which explains how Canada and US will operate, and if you read it, when we do and escort we give you room, i.e. operate at due regards, not trying to put a stencil mark on the underbelly of a plane while it is flying. Link to NORAD
http://www.fas.org/spp/military/doco...d/ins10015.htm
You can't justify shooting down an aircraft that you openly tried to do a hostile manuever on. Not only that, but the aircraft was not in China's airspace, so if you were escourting the P-3, you need to do it at a safe distance, not at freaking spitswaping distance.

Have you ever been around aircraft? I have, and let me tell you the freaking wind that is produced by the engines is incredible. It is pilot error to try and do something that stupid, and yes it is stupid. It may seem harsh but I can tell you way to many times where I have seen stupid people in action, and they kill not only themselves but other people too.

Now, for what it is worth I will state my record.
Service:
United States Army from Jan 87- to March of 90 as a combat engineer, was stationed in the reserves in Indiana. I served and deployed to Honduras (Soto Can Air Station to build a road), Ft Knox, Ft McCoy, Camp Attebery, Ft Lenoradwood, and Ft Cambell.
United States Air Force from March of 90 to November of 98 as a medic. Was Stationed at Clark Air Base Phillipines, Howard Air Force Base Panama, Geilenkirchen NATO AB GE/HQ AFCENT, Brunnsum NE, Howard Air Force Base NM.
I currently am a Vol Firefighter/EMT-B (assistent chief, EMS section) for our township. I have seen to many accidents, casulties, and all around dumb stuff that could have been avoided things, to care for.

A final note, 250, don't take it personally, it is that you are saying things without backing it up. I will not stand for misinformation, especially on someting that is a screw up and could be solved.

If you want my personal opoin on what to do... well, first China releases all the crew. While were doing the release and getting them out, we have the Brits sneak in and blow up the plane, they sneak out, and the problem is solved. Personally, I would have parked the Fleet, and readyed the Marines, for each day they don't release we sell more stuff to Tawian, and start bringin up all the human rights violations, and the intellectual trade violations. I'm sure china would love to hear we expidite a sale of say Aegies Missle frigates, AWACS and J-Stars, A-10's, F-16's and F-18, and tanker support along with search and rescue equipment oh sure, give us a reason to do that.

And please rember, I'm not attacking you, I'm attacking what you said.




[This message has been edited by Jimbo (edited 04-09-2001).]

[250]

Originally posted by Jimbo: 250

yes?

[250]

gosh... the more I read about the reports and news, the more anger I felt.
Once a famous chinese writor, revolutionist, thinker said:
"Endure, endure, if not be doomed in endurance, then explode in endurance!"

some people should know better than test a country's righteous rage!

[slackerboy]

jimbo, its what i would have said if i had the time and energy.
very well put

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[Jimbo]

Thanks slacker, just figured it needed to be said.

Btw, your sig is cool, and its not to bad for my dial-up connection, loads pretty quick. Mennochs is the only one that loads slow sometimes.

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Drink and be merry
Jimbo
"Renegade, Rebel, and Rogue"

[Sir Taliesin]

Great come back Jimbo!!! I glad someone around here does their homework!!!

250 - Please come back and some other time when you are not so full of hate. I think deep down you have a real problem with the US. Care to explain what it is?
No one else seems to get so worked up about it.

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Sir Taliesin

Ten Rings there are, and nine gold torcs on the battlechiefs of old...

[250]

"My reply, we would do an escort and make sure the Chicom aircraft was outside of the border/airspace, and would not hit there plane. "

remember:
"I" would do an escout, not "we"

also, if chinese MILITARY plane spy on your country and got discovered, I WOULD fly in one direction until escouted out, NOT SUDDENLY TURN to the left, and attempt to do somethign hostile.

if someone did do dumb staff, it was the spyplane, just how do you crash into someone if both are flying parallaly?? I give you a plane, and you see it yourself, if you will drive it and crash into a plane in front of you.

Sure we didn't give the equipment back, but it is not right to detain people when you are not at war. And yes we did give the equipment back, allthough it was later.

1976, a russian plane landed in japan, regardless Russian government's strong demand of returning the plane immediately, US and Japa desembled the plane and learnt everything they could, then returned it 76 days later.

Hmm, well looks likes the 24 people are not spies. There Aircraft was well marked, and was not in hostile territory, or doing things they can't do. So where is the grounds to hold them? They are not spies, but normal sailors doing there job.

ohhhhh, i see, so what were they doing out there? a 24 family members having a holiday trip out there? so freaking close to South China Sea, taking pictures? I see, hmm, not spy, not spy, not really.

Similarly, the following are not considered spies: soldiers or
civilians, carrying out their mission openly, charged with the delivery
of despatches destined either for their own army or for that of the
enemy.

hmmm, lets see, carry out mission OPENLY? ohhh well, pretty open are you? have you informed Chinese government that you will fly your planes around its border every so often? well, no

the truth was, the dudes were on a mission of obtain information, and they did it secretly. unfortunate for them, they were discovered. but that doesn't mean you weren't spying. a discovered spy is still a spy, that doesnt make him a "soldier who" all of a sudden "penatrated hostile zone"

You can't justify shooting down an aircraft that you openly tried to do a hostile manuever on. Not only that, but the aircraft was not in China's airspace, so if you were escourting the P-3, you need to do it at a safe distance, not at freaking spitswaping distance.

let me make this clear, it was AMERICAN plane made the turn, not chinese pilot.



look, man, the left wing, left motor, and plane head, in this order, the plane crashes. think about it, from this kinda direction, it left only two possible answers. one is chinese pilot deliberately drove into your plane from left wing. doing so would result the pilot a certain death, because he is in front and would should crash himself when his plane hits Spyplane from BELOW.

the second option is american plane made a sudden, big turn towards chinese plane, the chinese pilot barely managed to avoid, but not miss the manuver, because his own wing crashed into the spyplane.

about "escout from a safe distance" what the hell? what is a safe distance? before anything happens, any distance is safe. and do you mean, chinese should endure the constant taunts from american military, and still remain a "respectful" and "safe" distance??? how dare you spit down other people's right?? and by what right do you have to justify the constant spying missions on near china sea???

regardless you were not in china sea (it is not determined yet) your motivation was harmful to chinese people and chinese rights.

the convention: Preamble:
Recognizing the desirability of establishing through this Convention, with due regard for the sovereignty of all States, a legal order for the seas and oceans which will facilitate international communication, and will promote the peaceful uses of the seas and oceans, the equitable and efficient utilization of their resources, the conservation of their living resources, and the study, protection and preservation of the marine environment

look at the word: "PEACEFUL USE" "PEACEFUL USE" "PEACEFUL USE" "PEACEFUL USE"
US plane was on military mission, which was a secret remained unknown. let not discuss if THIS mission was hostile, but US had increasingly sending planes spying China, if not spy, THEN WHAT WERE THEY DOING???

if spy, then it is NOT PEACEFUL AT ALL! US broke the law, and face it!

final remark, this is an american scholar wrote to chinese people:


China is right

The U.S. government has flipped its lid on this China spy plane mess. So have many commentators who are refusing to come to terms with some very obvious facts. Once you blow away the fog, you can see that if anyone should be protesting right now, it is American citizens against their own government.

No. 1: The collision between the U.S. spy plane and the Chinese jet occurred along China's border. Think about that and you can understand why China is so unhappy.

Now, the U.S. claims it was in "international airspace," but backs up this claim with a rule arrived at unilaterally by the U.S. government and accepted by no one else. The U.S. makes up rules to justify its behavior, rules that the U.S. does not accept if applied against U.S. territory.

The space where the collision occurred is normally used to facilitate commerce, not hostile military activities. But in U.S. foreign policy, there is a presumption that the whole world is a playground for the U.S. government to do what it wants.

No. 2: The U.S. plane was a spy plane. Say it three times: It was a spy plane. It was not a commercial airliner. Hence it is preposterous for the U.S. to say that a spy plane landing in China territory is somehow sovereign property. The international law on this subject applies to civil aviation.

The U.S. spy plane was seeking to intercept communications and rip off information for U.S. military advantage, probably at the behest of China's unfriendly neighbors. This makes it an aggressor against China, just as the U.S. considers any attempt to spy on us to be aggression and evidence of hostility.

No. 3: The U.S. spy plane landed at a Chinese military airport. The U.S. crew never asked permission to do so. Imagine what the U.S. would do if a Chinese spy plane were zipping around outside Virginia, became entangled with U.S. jets, and then landed at a U.S. base. The U.S. would not say, "Sorry, guys, about interrupting your spy mission. Thanks for visiting our military base and come back soon."

No. 4: The Chinese pilot is dead. The U.S. crew is not. Also still dead are the three Chinese journalists who died when the U.S. bombed the Chinese Embassy in Yugoslavia in 1999. No U.S. soldiers died in that incident either. The carnage is beginning to mount, and, no surprise, that at some point the Chinese are going to decide they won't take it anymore. How long can one country be subjected to murderous attacks from the U.S. before it begins to complain? But if they do complain, this is decried in the U.S. as "nationalism."

No. 5: There is no mystery about how the U.S. treats such cases. In 1976, a Soviet MIG carrying a defector landed in Japan. The Soviets demanded the plane back. The U.S. complied after taking the entire thing apart. It was sent back to Moscow in packing crates.

On another occasion in the 1970s, the U.S. secretly tried to raise a Soviet submarine from the ocean. We use any means possible to obtain military equipment from potentially hostile nations. So turnabout is fair play.

No. 6: The U.S. spy plane was not an innocent victim. No one can say for sure how the collision occurred, but it seems obvious that the U.S. version of events -- a spy plane minding its own business gets bumped by a Chinese jet -- isn't true. This was a case of the kind of cat-and-mouse that cars play on highways all the time.

If it turns out that the U.S. is wholly to blame, it wouldn't be the first time. A couple of years ago, American fighter pilots cut ski cables in Italy, killing 20 civilians with their recklessness. And just recently, show-offs and goof-offs cruising the world in a submarine sank a Japanese school boat, killing nine, four of whom were 17-year-old kids.

No. 7: The U.S. has fulminated for years about supposed spying by China against the U.S. Remember the Cox Report? For all of its bluster, it never went so far as to accuse China of flying spy planes around our borders. But it turns out that the U.S. regards such activity as routine and justifiable, if directed against other countries.

The message is obvious: The U.S. can do whatever it wants with its military, but believes itself exempt from the very laws it wants to apply to others. This attitude engenders hatred around the world.

Though no one in the U.S. cares to remember, the Chinese have not forgotten the U.S. role in the so-called Opium Wars. In this 19th-century drug war, military force was used to addict the Chinese to drugs so as to create customers for opium. Nor have they forgotten the Boxer Rebellion, when U.S. troops -- in pursuit of continuing economic control -- burned and looted the ancient imperial compound. Nor, to take more recent examples, have they forgotten the U.S. threatening them twice in the 1950s with nuclear annihilation for responding to huge Taiwanese troop movements to the islands of Quemoy and Matsu near the mainland.

To say there are double standards at work here is a wild understatement. Despite all the mistreatment, Beijing doesn't want war. It wants the U.S. to behave like a responsible trading partner, not the world hegemon it has become. But there is only so much humiliation and bloodshed that a nation can be subjected to before its citizens demand reprisal.

Washington probably doesn't want war either. What it wants is a license to spy on and otherwise invade the world, killing and maiming whenever the time seems right, and never having to be held responsible. Washington wants what every bully wants -- the freedom to beat people up and never pay the price.

American citizens should join their friends across the ocean and protest U.S. imperial adventures. Our heritage is one of peace. Our founders tried to create a system that would prevent the establishment of a world military empire. It is our moral duty to criticize such an establishment when it threatens to upset peaceful commercial ties, which in the Chinese case are extensive and magnificent.

At minimum, we must demand that U.S. commentators cut out the absurd Cold War language of belligerency, lies, and reprisal. China has never done anything to us. We must demand that our own government stop the spying, bombing and killing. No American citizen benefits from the U.S. Empire. But we each have much to gain from having it dismantled.

There is only one evil empire alive in the world today, and it is not China.

(Llewellyn H. Rockwell Jr.)




[This message has been edited by 250 (edited 04-09-2001).]

[250]

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: Great come back Jimbo!!! I glad someone around here does their homework!!! 250 - Please come back and some other time when you are not so full of hate. I think deep down you have a real problem with the US. Care to explain what it is? No one else seems to get so worked up about it.

I myself has nothing against american PEOPLE, i know some of americans,a nd I really love and respect them. but american government's Cold War concept, and nationalist seriously piss me off.

three incidents happened in past couple years' time, killing lives, and not EVEN APOLOGIZE

ok, you didnt do it intentionally, but that doesnt make it right. everyone knows should some accidents happen and people lost lives, the people who caused it dont just walk away, they say "sorry." this is not the case for US, US is the boss of the world, he can do anything he wants, HE IS SPREADING HATE ALONG WHEREVER IT GOES!

to some of you who know me: if there is some thing i don't hide, it is my own personal false, and feelings. If I hate, I will say it, but I don't. I would never let ignorance hatrd blind my own judgement. You don't know how some of the chinese express their hatred towards Japan, and US. And I am telling, I am not one of these kind people. But justice is prevailed, I will strike!

If I am not a chinese, if I am Franch, or Australian, or Japanese, I will say the same thing, and post the same posts I posted above. and i will forever defend my opinions. If US still keep doing what he is doing now, he is only isolating himself from the world, he is only unvail the lies of "freedom, liberty, people's rights" to the snow-bright eyes of people of the world!


[This message has been edited by 250 (edited 04-09-2001).]

[This message has been edited by 250 (edited 04-09-2001).]

[Yorick]

Good on you 250. I've been reading this debate with a degree of interest. I hope people stop dissing you for you opinions and realise (regardless of their agreement or not) that you have made some valid points, rather than 'drivel'.

All I have to say on the matter is this:

If two people who love each other can't coexist without conflict then what chance do nations of people who don't understand each other?

The other point is this.

If I bump into someone in the street - even if it is not my fault, I will still apologise to the other person to negate any bad feeling.

Another point is this.
War is not the only way a nation is aggressive or "mean". Are not Multinationals the new empires? Complete with coups, takeovers, provinces and even dynasties? (think Rupert and Lachie Murdoch) Aslo when nations dump wheat in the ocean, or pay farmers not to grow food - so the status quo is maintained though people are starving - is not this a hidious and destructive evil? (Imagine if some starving bloke was in front of you and you burnt some bread rather than giving it to him.)


Just as an individual has darkness and flaws that need to be self examined from time to time, so to do nations. I would hope that citizens of certain nations would acknowledge that despite the good a nation is capable of, it is also capable of evil - just as it is in an individual. Ignoring that evil lets it grow like a cancer.


Finally this is my last point.
All this talk of wars and who will win..... There is no winner with war. It is a curse upon humanity.

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O.K..... what do I do now?


A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[250]

Memnoch, if you want to say something, do it quick, i gtg sleep!