The "China" Crises

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Excuse me, I don't want to get petty here, but tell me: when you were a child, did your parents EVER accept the bad behaviour of another child as a valid reason for YOUR bad conduct? Are you REALLY offering the USSR as an excuse for America?! Think on, laddie!

I believe thats my point exactly, to say that U.S.A.'s actions are bad when the are many examples throughout history truely bad behaviour. What did the U.S.A. realy do? We flew an electronic evesdroping plane (spyplane is a term used by the great news media) in international air space. How can that be ham-fisted? I submit that trying to scare or alter the course of a plane in international air space is ham-fisted. Even now the Russian gov. still sends their electronic evesdroppers off our coast. The U.S.A.'s response is to send fighters up to keep them out of our air space. The Russain response is to stay out of our air space. The result of both of those actions are NO planes get hit, run into, shot down, there's alot of hand gesture diplomicy between the pilots. These men are professional they understand their actions could cause the deaths of many people. They play by the rules.
In 1981, if I remember correctly, a KAL passenger flight was shot down besause it was mistaken for one of our evesdroppers. The radar operater screwed the pooch on that one. That's ham-fisted. The pilot fired his missle at the plane a 747, it looks nothing like a EC-130.

[This message has been edited by John D Harris (edited 04-09-2001).]

[John D Harris]

Sir Taliesin,
On behalf on my self, family and friends I thank you for your service!!
And the fact you are willing to bear the brunt (Sp?) for my freedom. As a son of a fighter pilot who served 20 years I am intimittly aware of you family's sacrifice also, I salute them too!

[slackerboy]

Originally posted by John D Harris: Sir Taliesin, On behalf on my self, family and friends I thank you for your service!! And the fact you are willing to bear the brunt (Sp?) for my freedom. As a son of a fighter pilot who served 20 years I am intimittly aware of you family's sacrifice also, I salute them too!

aye aye!!


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[Moridin]

Originally posted by Gray Mage: This is not about China holding it's own men, This is about them holding our Servicemen. This Wen Ho Lee, should still be in jail if not executed, in my book selling secrets to another nation is treason. You know what the penalty for treason should be.....death, if it is not already. Anyone who doesn't like the way we do things in america can leave. The only way we should have to pay consequences if it was our fault for the collision. But if you take all the evidence, Type of planes, pilot history(Mr. top gun want to be) maveuverability, and all the factors. The evidence seems to suggest that they collided with us. I also notice nobody said anything about the subs that fire Undetectable nukes, that were purchased from our former enemy. John D Harris, hey, good to see you still here. Can you belive the drivel that is spewing forth. Draconia, It seems that these guys are jealous of your husbands grasp on the world situation, Bravo to him.

Sorry GM, but do read the news? Wen Ho Lee was found INNOCENT of all the charges against him. This means he DID NOT sell secrets to the Chinese. The 'items' they found on his unclassified computer hard-drive were proven to be accessible from the internet and considered 'public' documents not classified secrets as our lovely Justice department was making them out to be. Do you still want to put him back in jail and execute him?

And how do you consider the statement, "a lot of people around the world owe everything they have to the US", a grasp on the world situation? To say that we are just jealous of this is pretending to know us and our thoughts and is no better than the shameful response that 250 made to the original comment!


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It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear ignorant,
than open it and remove all doubt!

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by John D Harris: I believe thats my point exactly, to say that U.S.A.'s actions are bad when the are many examples throughout history truely bad behaviour. .

Point made, John D. I guess I misunderstood what you were saying! Also, I have not read all posts on this. However (*in small voice*) I still think American Govt. is *ham-fisted* inasmuch as they seem to think that what is ok for them is not ok for anyone else. I am NOT getting at Americans, here, just the Govt. If it's any consolation, I think the British Govt. stinks as well! I think ALL Government stink!
*Ponders* Shall I become an Anarchist?


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Smile! Life is too short for bitching!

Fljotsdale

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Point made, John D. I guess I misunderstood what you were saying! Also, I have not read all posts on this. However (*in small voice*) I still think American Govt. is *ham-fisted* inasmuch as they seem to think that what is ok for them is not ok for anyone else. I am NOT getting at Americans, here, just the Govt. If it's any consolation, I think the British Govt. stinks as well! I think ALL Government stink! *Ponders* Shall I become an Anarchist?

I believe it was Winston Churchill that said democracy is the worst form of govt. except for all the rest.
As long as we got people running them all govts. will pull some pretty bonehead moves. I think is the intentions(sp?) that need to be looked at. Right or wrong with our position in the world it's natural to be wary (sp?). But, the vast majority of the american people are live and let live. There are fringe groups on BOTH sides of the spectum here.

[Accord]

Originally posted by Moridin: Sorry GM, but do read the news? Wen Ho Lee was found INNOCENT of all the charges against him. This means he DID NOT sell secrets to the Chinese. The 'items' they found on his unclassified computer hard-drive were proven to be accessible from the internet and considered 'public' documents not classified secrets as our lovely Justice department was making them out to be. Do you still want to put him back in jail and execute him? And how do you consider the statement, "a lot of people around the world owe everything they have to the US", a grasp on the world situation? To say that we are just jealous of this is pretending to know us and our thoughts and is no better than the shameful response that 250 made to the original comment!

POINT!!

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Long live H22A1!!!!!

[Lord of Alcohol]

I agree with Sir Talieson, we ALL spy on each other. Its been that way for a long time before eavesdropping aircraft. Actually that was my dads job (ground based radio intercept though) for 30 years. The point is everyone wants to know what the other is doing and always will. The Chinese are being ridiculous and it may bite them in the ass

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by John D Harris: I believe it was Winston Churchill that said democracy is the worst form of govt. except for all the rest. As long as we got people running them all govts. will pull some pretty bonehead moves. I think is the intentions(sp?) that need to be looked at. Right or wrong with our position in the world it's natural to be wary (sp?). But, the vast majority of the american people are live and let live. There are fringe groups on BOTH sides of the spectum here.

Your spelling is fine, John D.! Trust yourself! Y'know, after the false start, we seem to be pretty much in agreement! Maybe we should form a Govt of our own....? No. On second thoughts, we would just finish up like all the rest, lol! Human nature being what it is!


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Smile! Life is too short for bitching!

Fljotsdale

[250]

nonesense, nonesense, everyone spies? everyone what?? dude, wake up, and stop excusing yourselves, do you admit US is wrong in this matter? if not, then you have no sense of justice and fairness, and be shamed you are a citizen of united stats.

if chinese pilots "fly on the international water around american coast" you see what Bush government will do.

also, dont give me the crap that "China continue to expand, and that is why US plane crashed into chinese plane", hah, very funny, how far is this "spyplane" from US? and how far is this chinese plane? who expanded in reality?? huh?

US had been constantly spying in china, regardless chinese land's property right, regardless chinese people's right, regardless chinese people's feeling. NO ONE owe US a thing int his world, i am telling you. if any, that is a "back off" throwing at US's way.

every country in the world right now is accusing US for what it did. Russia, Hispanic, France, England, numerous east asian countries including Philipine, Thai, Indonisya, Malaysia, areas, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and more! and Us will turn his back on the world then, i suppose?

at last, about international laws. that proves the spyplane even more guity. according to international law, if an alian plane is being escouted, he MUST keep flying in one direction until escout out, it MUST NOT turn to other direction, should it do so, the escouting plane has the right to shoot it down.

dude, i think you all have some basic physics knowledge, a fighterplane IS MUCH faster to fly. but, speed is not import in the air, a plane's life is total energy. that is the sum of speed AND height. if a fighter plane flys in low speed, it is easy to lose momentun, and lose control of the plane. to escout a spysplane, which is much slower than fighterplane is very dangerous. it is not easy to manuver because the fighter already lost so many speed.

according to international law, fighter plane MUST stay left behind from the escouted plane, then suppose you are the pilot, WILL YOU CRASH INTO THE SPYPLANE FROM BEHIND??? unless the spyplane make the turn (which is illegal), how can accident happen????

USE YOUR BRAIN!