BG2 Spell Reference Updated - Again!

[Alson]

Another Email from Xyx!
Spell Reference is updated, BTW. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Xyx's second Email: Ah, more feedback to respond to... Dundee says: "Even if you dislike using Pierce Shield, at least correct the analogy or people might get the wrong idea that PS will get rid of Spell Trap. Remember, it is remove one level 8 spell and -30% Magic Resistance for a level 20+ Mage." He must be confused by the Staff of the Magi. That Spell Trap is undispellable by Pierce Shield or Ruby Ray of Reversal. The memorized one goes down perfectly. I reworded the Staff of the Magi note a little. "[about Protection from Energy] Jon Irenicus, Shahagalar, Kangaxx, Suneer, Tolgerias, Lavok, and some more? These are the ones with ADHW, there should be more using Skull Traps." Alson said "name TEN mages". Besides, I can't remember anyone but Lavok cast Horrid Wilting myself, and I remember only liches casting Skull Trap, after 15 other spells. Must be the mods he has installed. "FoD is not pathetic. It has by default, a -2 saving penalty which is pretty good already. Greater Malison ensures more or less that it will work, but even without Greater Malison, its' success rate is remarkable in SoA->ToB." There's some mythical aura about spells that people have gotten lucky with one or two times against dragons. The idea is apparently that if it takes down a dragon in one casting, it must be the best spell ever. Luck, for some reason, suddenly has nothing to do with it anymore. Greater Malison FAR FROM ensures that it will work, since it still leaves the average dragon (save vs Spells 5) with 50% chance of making the save (and that's not even including magic resistance). All this spell has over Polymorph Others is the -2 save penalty and some pathetic damage. I don't consider that a good trade for THREE levels difference. Does he use clones much? I'm currently reading through the ToB part of Elmonster's Journal, and he writes that, halfway through ToB, he's going to memorize Project Image for the very first time. He's obviously someone who has a way with spells, but somehow he never realized the potential of cloning. "You are talking to a guy who likes to summon 100 Skeleton Warriors and sic them on the enemy. You do not see me casting Incendiary Clouds over them as well do you? This is easily testable, simply cast Ice Storm or any equivalent spell and send in a Skeleton Warrior. They are immuned to cold, but they will still go hostile because the spell was from YOU. This is NOT IWD, summons will go hostile when hit by AoE spells casted by you. The chance to go hostile is not 100%, but akin to 95%." Well, I tried AGAIN. Summoned three Skeleton Warriors and cast three Skull Traps at them. One got damaged and turned hostile, the others made all their magic resistance checks and stayed friendly. I think he's confusing magic resistance with damage resistance here. If you do zero damage to a summon, it DOES turn hostile. When it makes a magic resistance check, you don't even do the zero damage. I missed it when Alson said: "I wholly agree - you know how much i like SI. I talked to Xyx about it many times, but it's HIS guide, after all. He has the final word, and he doesn't like it as much as we do." I DO like Spell Immunity A LOT. I just don't think that one mage in a full party has a use for it day in day out. Making one guy immune to 10% of the spells you get thrown at you is, well, not super. I'll reword it, though. "people think I am crazy to exclude Breach from my SSSL." "Super Sorcerer Spell List"? But he's right. Who needs Breach? Handy but easy to work around (all you need is a little patience =D). "Resist Fear lasts for one hour, Remove Fear lasts for 2 turns." Whoa, good point! Will change. "[about comparing Flame Arrow to Melf's Acid Arrow] This is like saying a M-16 is comparable to a Berreta." Will change. "I am not 100% sure, but judging from the MMMs that enemy Mages throw at me, it only removes one skin per hit." Damn, it's true. =D Shows you gotta personally verify everything people claim. Reworded (plus I mentioned the weight). "RRoR is only level 7." Damn, I must've been sleeping. [img]smile.gif[/img] "List out all the save penalties to avoid confusion." Redundant. I'd rather take most of them out. Still, if anyone cares to provide me with a 100% accurate and complete list of save modifiers, I'll put it in. Keep the feedback coming! [img]smile.gif[/img] Xyx

[Alson]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Eh? You got the "much tougher than a single Mountain Bear" right, but... two things. 1) They are not invisible 2) They suck against Mind Flayers Check out the latest Email about Bears Vs. Servants. ]The "insta-kill" effect only applies to Undead. We meant, immune to Insta-kill effects. Read the whole sentence. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Dundee Slaytern]

This I don't get. If you start off with Carsomyr, you get 90%, right? So what is he talking about?

You start off with 90%, but the moment you swing your weapon and hit the enemy, it resets to 50%. Annoying, but there you go.

This I don't get. Besides wondering why you'd need to remove an enemy Spell Trap or lower a mage's resistance, why Secret Word instead of Ruby Ray of Reversal?

It is not inconceivable that one can complete the game without Pierce Shield, and I do agree that RRoR is better most of the time, but the description of Pierce Shield is misleading and should at least be corrected.

Assuming a level 20 Mage,

Pierce Shield remove one spell protection of level 8 or lower and lowers the target's Magic Resistance by 30%. RRoR removes one spell protection of level 9 or lower. Ergo, Pierce Shield is not RRoR + Weaker Lower Resistance. Pierce Shield is Improved Secret Word + Lower Resistance. Improved Secret Word because it ignores Globe of Invulnerability.

Let's just say I like Simulacrum and Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting a LOT better. If you really need to buff up before a fight, use several of the lower level ones.

Heh, heh. Different styles of playing I guess, especially since I dislike Simulacrum. It does have its' uses though, especially since the caster's base resistances are not always 0%.

No, he's not kidding. Compare this to the payload of a Project Image and the difference should be obvious. Besides, Polymorph Other is a pretty viable and MUCH cheaper alternative if you're going to use Greater Malison.

That same Project Image can still shoot out 4+ FoDs if it should so desire. After all, you and I both know that the PI illusion is free anyway. Polymorph Other cannot compare to FoD as enemies have outrageous saves against Polymorph. They tend to have sad saves against spells though. Weird, but there you go.

No, he doesn't. In fact, he was so shocked by the possibility this could be so that he decided to verify it on the spot. Skull Trapped two Skeleton Warriors. One got hit and turned hostile, the other was unaffected and stayed friendly.

My bad, I just tested myself and verified. I concede on this point.

Mediocre because one spell at a lower level does about the same, and one spell at the same level does something better. Some people seem to think that every spell is good "since you can combine with Greater Malison". Does that make every spell good, or just Greater Malison?

If you are referring to Polymorph Other, refer to my above comments regarding FoD. Feeblemind uses the save vs spell roll. Polymorph Other uses the save vs petrification/polymorph roll. Enemies tend to have much worse saves vs spell then polymorph. As for the latter, not every spell is good, but certain spells become exceptionally good when combined with Greater Malison. On their own, they are still good.

Well, how many Kangaxxes do you meet? And what's so useful against other liches? Protecting against their Symbol, Symbol, Symbol sequence?

Protecting against their Wail of Banshee, total immunity to their Flame Arrows and Melf's Acid Arrows( Mirror Image is not 100% guaranteed ), immunity to their Flesh to Stone, etc... These are the Liches, we also have to deal with traps that spit out horrifying spells like Maze or Imprisonment. Then we have the general-type enemy Mage that loves to cast Evocation spells. Spell Immunity generally has a use in all fights that involves hostile spellcasting.

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Thanks for going through the trouble of reviewing our comments.

[Dundee Slaytern]

He must be confused by the Staff of the Magi. That Spell Trap is undispellable by Pierce Shield or Ruby Ray of Reversal. The memorized one goes down perfectly. I reworded the Staff of the Magi note a little.

I see. I will have to give Pierce Shield more credit then.

Alson said "name TEN mages". Besides, I can't remember anyone but Lavok cast Horrid Wilting myself, and I remember only liches casting Skull Trap, after 15 other spells. Must be the mods he has installed.

I am referring to unmodded encounters. Were I to include modded encounters, my list would be much, much, longer.

There's some mythical aura about spells that people have gotten lucky with one or two times against dragons. The idea is apparently that if it takes down a dragon in one casting, it must be the best spell ever. Luck, for some reason, suddenly has nothing to do with it anymore. Greater Malison FAR FROM ensures that it will work, since it still leaves the average dragon (save vs Spells 5) with 50% chance of making the save (and that's not even including magic resistance). All this spell has over Polymorph Others is the -2 save penalty and some pathetic damage. I don't consider that a good trade for THREE levels difference. Does he use clones much? I'm currently reading through the ToB part of Elmonster's Journal, and he writes that, halfway through ToB, he's going to memorize Project Image for the very first time. He's obviously someone who has a way with spells, but somehow he never realized the potential of cloning.

I am flattered, but... I am not the guy behind Elmonster. As for cloning, I use it a lot. Alson knows about my PRATI cheese.

As I have mentioned in my earlier reply, Polymorph Other works differently from Feeblemind and Finger of Death. They use different saving throws to determine the success of the spell. As a result, Polymorph Other suffers badly in ToB, but Feeblemind and FoD continues to work well.

One of these days I should only cast FoD at a Dragon though, they do not usually survive to get hit by the level 4 spells... too many level 1-3 spells hitting them. I would garner that my success rate with sniping with FoD is around 75%, which is very good odds already.

If you want to talk about luck though... there was this one time where I slayed a Mind Flayer with a Chromatic Orb, and another time, a Pit Fiend. Now THAT, is luck.

"Super Sorcerer Spell List"? But he's right. Who needs Breach? Handy but easy to work around (all you need is a little patience =D).

Solo Sorcerer Spell List, it has a cousin, the PartySSL( PSSL). Speaking of which, I should update it to reflect changes needed for mods.

[Dundee Slaytern]

I must say though, this "old" dog is learning new tricks and being enlighted on several ones as well.

Here's one from me regarding Khelben's Warding Whip. It is a little known fact that KWW disrupts a Mage's spellcasting when its' grayish sphere appears. It is possible to totally wreck a Mage's spellcasting by bombarding him with KWWs.

[Alson]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: I must say though, this "old" dog is learning new tricks and being enlighted on several ones as well.

I am so happy to hear that, Dundee.
That's the point behind the Spell Reference (well, IMO at least... It was Xyx who started it) - it is suited for the "fresh meat" and for the "old dogs" alike. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Here's one from me regarding Khelben's Warding Whip. It is a little known fact that KWW disrupts a Mage's spellcasting when its' grayish sphere appears. It is possible to totally wreck a Mage's spellcasting by bombarding him with KWWs.

Or bombarding him with Magic Missile. Or Insect Plague. Or Creeping Doom. Or Power Word : Blind. Or Nature's Beauty. Or Skull Traps. Or... Well, you get my drift... [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Enemy Mages are easy once you know your spells.
That's why i like the Improved Mages so much. They are soooo much better. Cast&Attack with MMM's was never so scary...

[Zarr]

Just got round to reading the spells guide finally(I've been meaning to for a while but haven't had the time) and I must say a job well done to all those involved! This guide has inspired me to try a few spells I've never used before. I've bookmarked this site, once again well done!

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by Alson: Or bombarding him with Magic Missile. Or Insect Plague. Or Creeping Doom. Or Power Word : Blind. Or Nature's Beauty. Or Skull Traps. Or... Well, you get my drift... [img]tongue.gif[/img] ~~

Yeah, but I thought you might want to include that quirk in your description of KWW. No other counterspell does this, at least none that I know of.

[Alson]

Listening to Xyx and Dundee debating about spells is something i wanted to see a long time ago... *My* best spells debates were with those two. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Xyx strikes back:

Another Email from Xyx: Dundee spake thus: "I get the impressive that your friend is not utilising the full potential of all the spells by being so negative towards those that allow a saving throw. Doom is one of the level one spell for a Priest. A -2 penalty to THACO, AC and saving throws is an excellent bargain for a fast casting level one spell." Spells with saves have the following drawbacks: - They're nothing but wasted time if the save is made (saves in ToB: 5-10). - They cause effects that most bosses have cheesy immunities against. Doom is probably the best spell at its level, and I'll give it that little more credit, but that says more about the other level 1 priest spells than Doom. I don't see how one measly 2-point save penalty compares to the big guns. It's only a 10% increase of the effectiveness of SOME of your future spells. I guess I'm more a fan of immediate effect. Sure, if you plan to cast a dozen Polymorph Others, Feebleminds and Disintegrates at one specific creature, then Doom is great. Somehow, a strategy like that doesn't appeal to me. "[about Resist Fire/Cold] Gah! His apathy to elemental resistances bugs me. It was because of this spell that my Cavalier could laugh at many a Fire-Breathing Dragon or stand in a pit of lava while fighting Fire Giants. It is not the most fantastic spell out there, but it is useful, and not a sad spell." "MANY a fire-breathing dragon"? I can think of, what is it, two? One of which you don't have to fight (Firkraag), and the other you don't even have to meet for any reason (Saladrex). Please let me know if I missed any. Fighting fire giants whilst standing in pits of lava doesn't sound like an everyday occurence either. This description was written before I ever heard of ToB, so it's a bit outdated. I'll admit that this spell is not COMPLETELY useless anymore. I'll update a bit. "[about Cure Medium Wounds] Typo, "Upgrade"." Good. Xyx hates typos. "[about Miscast Magic] For a level 3 spell, this spell is effective." Uhm. Compare this to Hold Person. That works on more creatures, has an area (tiny as it may be) and paralyzes creatures (they can't do anything, you get free hits). Hold Person is only a level 2 spell. How often do you use that? "[about Remove Curse] I do not suppose he gambles with the Cambion?" Ah, excuse me. Pre-ToB writing. Will reword. "[about Animal Summoning I] Friendly fire will turn the animals hostile." Don't know where I got that. More proof that everything has to be personally verified. X( Removed. "[about Aerial Servant] 1) They are not invisible 2) They suck against Mind Flayers" 1) They are. They have an undroppable Ring of Invisibility. Try it. 2) Indeed. I must've been confusing them with Invisible Stalkers. Removed. "Regeneration is possibly one of the cheesiest spells ever!" We do list the cheese (General Spell Info section, under "Regeneration"), but I dare say clones, triggers and Nahal's Reckless Dweomer are a TAD cheesier. "Pierce Shield remove one spell protection of level 8 or lower" Nope. Removes one spell protection period, up to and including Spell Trap, just like Ruby Ray of Reversal. Try it (like I did) and be amazed. "you and I both know that the PI illusion is free anyway." Unless he's referring to the Spell Trap tricks, no, I don't know. I'd like to hear, though. =D "Protecting against their Wail of Banshee, total immunity to their Flame Arrows and Melf's Acid Arrows( Mirror Image is not 100% guaranteed ), immunity to their Flesh to Stone, etc... These are the Liches, we also have to deal with traps that spit out horrifying spells like Maze or Imprisonment. Then we have the general-type enemy Mage that loves to cast Evocation spells. Spell Immunity generally has a use in all fights that involves hostile spellcasting." Uhm. This seems to imply casting some half dozen Spell Immunities before every fight. How do you fight off a lich with a single Spell Immunity? "I am not the guy behind Elmonster. As for cloning, I use it a lot. Alson knows about my PRATI cheese." I was merely pointing out that Kevin Dorner, the guy behind Elmonster, seemed, for all his BG2 prowess, oblivious to the awesome power of cloning. (Whoa, run-on sentence!) What's "PRATI" cheese? Sounds tasty. =D // Alson: I fail to see the cheese, but PRATI stands for Project Image, Robe of Vecna, Amulet of Power, Time Stop and Improved Alacrity. Just beacuse it's powerful doesn't mean it's cheese. [img]tongue.gif[/img] "I would garner that my success rate with sniping with FoD is around 75%, which is very good odds already." Considering the average dragon has 60% magic resistance and a save of 5, that is very unlikely even after a couple of Lower Resistances, a Greater Malison and a Doom. Not impossible, just very unlikely. "It is a little known fact that KWW disrupts a Mage's spellcasting when its' grayish sphere appears. It is possible to totally wreck a Mage's spellcasting by bombarding him with KWWs." Sounds like fun, but I can't get it to work. Can you guys reproduce this? // Alson: I have no means of testing. Dundee? Would you mind? Keep sending in the feedback. [img]smile.gif[/img] Oh, and the Ref has of course been updated. Still no real changes to the History (same date, only minor rewordings and corrections). Cheers, Xyx

[Dundee Slaytern]

Spells with saves have the following drawbacks: - They're nothing but wasted time if the save is made (saves in ToB: 5-10). - They cause effects that most bosses have cheesy immunities against. Doom is probably the best spell at its level, and I'll give it that little more credit, but that says more about the other level 1 priest spells than Doom. I don't see how one measly 2-point save penalty compares to the big guns. It's only a 10% increase of the effectiveness of SOME of your future spells. I guess I'm more a fan of immediate effect. Sure, if you plan to cast a dozen Polymorph Others, Feebleminds and Disintegrates at one specific creature, then Doom is great. Somehow, a strategy like that doesn't appeal to me.

What is your playing style then? I am what some may consider to be a speedcaster. "Normal" fights for me last no more than 3 rounds( the duration of Time Stop). The key to most of my strategy is to bombard the enemy with so many spells, that even if the enemy saves or avoids some of them, the majority will still hit the enemy. It is not uncommon for my Project Image to be almost depleted after one round of Time Stop.

Some players advocate the usage of high-level, heavy-duty spells to cast on the enemy, but they tend to have long casting times. The majority of my offensive spells have a casting time of 0 after you factor in the Robe of Vecna and the Amulet of Power. Thus, I can flood out all my level 1-7 spells( and certain level 9 ones) and still have time to cast my level 8 ones( usually about 4 Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting). In addition, were this to be my real Sorcerer doing the casting, you can also include all the Sequencers and pre-stored Contingencies.

To cut a long story short, I cast the fast spells first, then cast the slow spells. Chain Lightning, Finger of Death, Dragon's Breath, Wish, etc... are all above level 5, but still have a casting time of 0 due to their low base casting time. Throw a stone at a guy, and he will most likely live. Throw a hundred stones at the same guy... and he will most likely die.

"MANY a fire-breathing dragon"? I can think of, what is it, two? One of which you don't have to fight (Firkraag), and the other you don't even have to meet for any reason (Saladrex). Please let me know if I missed any. Fighting fire giants whilst standing in pits of lava doesn't sound like an everyday occurence either. This description was written before I ever heard of ToB, so it's a bit outdated. I'll admit that this spell is not COMPLETELY useless anymore. I'll update a bit.

Well, I do play the game multiple times. Firkragg is an evil creature and should be elimated for the good of the land, and rare few will insist on skipping him( although the player is free to choose whatever he wants). Same goes for Saladrex, who holds a component to the most damaging weapon in the game. Resist Fire/Cold can see more action than just these fights though. The Guardians in Firkragg's dungeon is where Fire Resistance will come in handy as well, the Twisted Rune's Mage casts Meteor Swarm, Fire-based Traps, Imix in Yaga Shura's Stronghold, etc... ...

True, it is not necessary all the time, but it is handy when it is needed.

Uhm. Compare this to Hold Person. That works on more creatures, has an area (tiny as it may be) and paralyzes creatures (they can't do anything, you get free hits). Hold Person is only a level 2 spell. How often do you use that?

Miscast Magic has a -2 penalty to save, Hold Person does not have a save penalty at all. Both have a casting time of 5, and assuming the Priest's version, both last for 1 turn. Miscast Magic can also be used on Undead, Dragons, and any creature larger than a humanoid, whereas Hold Person is ignored by them.

As an early Anti-Spellcaster spell, Miscast Magic is superior.

1) They are. They have an undroppable Ring of Invisibility. Try it.

Do they? Do they use it then? Everytime I summon an Aerial Servant, the enemy can see them without fail. Do I have to activate the ring myself?

Nope. Removes one spell protection period, up to and including Spell Trap, just like Ruby Ray of Reversal. Try it (like I did) and be amazed.

I stand corrected.

Unless he's referring to the Spell Trap tricks, no, I don't know. I'd like to hear, though. =D

You already know about it, it is listed on your website. The Wish method. Sorcerers have an easier time utilising the Wish cheese because they can spam Wish with minimal effort. A Mage has to memorise several Wishes to even try to equal the Sorcerer in spamming Wishes, so the Spell Trap method is much better for the Mage. Sorcerers have to be careful what they choose for their spells, and Wish will help them more the Spell Trap, so it is better for them to use the Wish method.

Uhm. This seems to imply casting some half dozen Spell Immunities before every fight. How do you fight off a lich with a single Spell Immunity?

Ah... but that is not the case. Listen to what the Lich says as it casts its' spell, and observe the animation. This will enable you to know what is the school of magic that this spell is from, and allow you to cast Spell Immunity properly. With the Robe of Vecna and the Amulet of Power, casting Spell Immunity is instantaneous.

To defeat a Lich, I just need a good old sling( usually the Sling of Everand), some resistance spells( using Contingencies), and Spell Immunity. The robe and amulet are taken for granted of course, since you can easily get them in Chapter 2.

What's "PRATI" cheese? Sounds tasty. =D

Hard to describe in words. It has to be seen to be believed.

Here are some screenshots of the tactic in action with a Necromancer before I incorporated Project Image into it,

http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/ds_s...l/Gromnir.html

Considering the average dragon has 60% magic resistance and a save of 5, that is very unlikely even after a couple of Lower Resistances, a Greater Malison and a Doom. Not impossible, just very unlikely.

That is assuming all the enemies are hulking, brooding Dragons wanting to devour your soul. For the majority of fights, the enemy has no Magic Resistance, and average saves. On a side-note, success with a Dragon is easier than you think. Chromatic Orbs have +6 bonus save, but the Dragon can only roll so many good saves before it fails. Polymorph is not the easiest, but whenever I have tried, it takes only at most, 4 tries before the Dragon is reduced to a squeaking squirrel. The odds become even better when I use Finger of Death or Feeblemind. It is 50/50, very good odds.

Sounds like fun, but I can't get it to work. Can you guys reproduce this? // Alson: I have no means of testing. Dundee? Would you mind?

Hmmmm... just tested and got disappointed. Looks like ToB has fixed it. Dang.