10-14-2004, 10:12 AM | #51 | |
Ninja Storm Shadow
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Quote:
As for the shells the position was that there was Zero, not that there wasn't enough to make it worth our while. Now I believe you will find a shell that delievers posion gas is in fact considered a WoMD. I have no problem with people that think only a few are not worth our while to take action, My problem is with people that said there was Zero, when infact there was some. "Hale" I thought there would be lots and said so publicly on this board, based on what I had read. I was wrong about there being Lots. I also said that SoDamn Insane needed his rear-end kicked and I didn't care what the reasons where that were given as long as it was done. [ 10-14-2004, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]
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Crustiest of the OLD COOTS "Donating mirrors for years to help the Liberal/Socialist find their collective rear-ends, because both hands doesn't seem to be working. Veitnam 61-65:KIA 1864 66:KIA 5008 67:KIA 9378 68:KIA 14594 69:KIA 9414 70:KIA 4221 71:KIA 1380 72:KIA 300 Afghanistan2001-2008 KIA 585 2009-2012 KIA 1465 and counting Davros 1 Much abliged Massachusetts |
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10-14-2004, 10:38 AM | #52 |
Takhisis Follower
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Your right of course JD - zero was an incorrect answer.
It is of course also true that they found 0.001% of what they expected to find based on the so called "intelligence". Of course, that amount, when represented to 2 less significant fingures is of course 0. Both statements are ostensibly true no matter how they may apparently conflict
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Davros was right - just ask JD |
10-14-2004, 11:09 AM | #53 | |
Ninja Storm Shadow
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If somebody takes the position of there is/was not enough to justify going to war, that is a defensable position, a position/opinion that can't be argued with, unless a number of what is enough is given. Once a number is given it moves from a grey area to a Black & White position. This is the treshold, the line drawn in the sand. There are some that have said they don't care if there was any WoMD's found, no matter what the number. That is also a defensable position, My contention is that when the line is drawn then is crossed, admit it, if not what good is the line drawn?
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Crustiest of the OLD COOTS "Donating mirrors for years to help the Liberal/Socialist find their collective rear-ends, because both hands doesn't seem to be working. Veitnam 61-65:KIA 1864 66:KIA 5008 67:KIA 9378 68:KIA 14594 69:KIA 9414 70:KIA 4221 71:KIA 1380 72:KIA 300 Afghanistan2001-2008 KIA 585 2009-2012 KIA 1465 and counting Davros 1 Much abliged Massachusetts |
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10-14-2004, 12:34 PM | #54 |
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Im still trying to figure out if John Kerry was lying when he said that Sadam had WoMD....I have been told by dozens of liberals that Bush lied when he said it.....but there seems to be some contention as to weather John Kerry was lying...he is a member of the Senate Intelligence committee and thus is privy to the exact same intel the president was.....Im so confused. [ 10-14-2004, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ] |
10-14-2004, 06:28 PM | #55 |
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Well - I think MagiK it has a lot to do with how close you are to the information, and your capacity (if indeed any) to distort the issue.
Befoer I develop an answer le me say that I haven't seen proof that either side lied yet. Back at the start of it all, Bush puts out the word that his intelligence sources say that there are WOMD in Iraq. His claims were widely and implicitly believed. Hell dude - let's remember that 50-70% of the whole world was hoodwinked by those claims. Why would Kerry not take them at face value as the accepted position. Was Kerry in a position to demand access to the proof and cross-question the available intelligence. No Sir - not him and his party - they were not on watch. Who was recieving the info. Bush of course - it was his watch - or at the least the watch of his administration. There seems to be a developig picture that GW was intent on Iraq - even back to the point of insinuating (and leaving the false perception out there) that they were the real ones behind Sep 11. We know from the benefit of hindsight that the US (and their allies) trusted this "oh so flawed" intel. When questions of "did sos or so lie about WOMD" it comes back to what influence did they have over the intel. If the available intel looked so good and they followed it and it turned out to be wrong - well that is the intels fault. If the intel was known to be dodgy, but it supported what the administration wanted to do - well then to some degree that constitutes lying to me. In such a case (ie the"dodgy" 2nd case), it matters not to me whether they lied or fabricated evidence or just failed to thoroughly cross check a story they suspected was a house of cards. So in summary - there is the potential there for Bush to influence the situation, so there is the potential there for Bush to have lied. JK has to take on face value (as did much of the world) that the evidence was true - ergo JK didn't lie. Did Bush lie - I would like to know - hale [img]smile.gif[/img] , the whole world would like to know that. Given the power that he holds I hope the answer is no. Hope that clears things up for you MagiK.
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Davros was right - just ask JD |
10-14-2004, 09:50 PM | #56 |
Ninja Storm Shadow
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Davros, here in the U.S.A. Senate and House committees have lots of power, not the day to day power, but the power of oversight. In other words they can stop the whole ball of wax if they want, it all part of the checks and balances hoopla. The President can direct something to happen but Congress can say no or at least sure go ahead and try but we're not funding it and effectively KILL it. ie: the ending of U.S. military matterial suport of South Vietnam, Nixon said we will support you, Congress said sure you can support them all you want but we are not funding any support. Support was Killed.
Here in the US Congress is the real power, and ladies and gentlemen that is truly scary.
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Crustiest of the OLD COOTS "Donating mirrors for years to help the Liberal/Socialist find their collective rear-ends, because both hands doesn't seem to be working. Veitnam 61-65:KIA 1864 66:KIA 5008 67:KIA 9378 68:KIA 14594 69:KIA 9414 70:KIA 4221 71:KIA 1380 72:KIA 300 Afghanistan2001-2008 KIA 585 2009-2012 KIA 1465 and counting Davros 1 Much abliged Massachusetts |
10-14-2004, 11:28 PM | #57 |
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Davros, that was my point John Kerry was not taking the Presidents word, he made the comments on his own because as a member of the Sennate Intelligence committee he sees the same Intel that goes to the president, and HE Kerry made recommendations to the Senate based on what he saw...What he saw, what Bush saw, what Tony Blair saw...was what everyone believed up to that point...all the intel showed Saddam had WoMD's and programs to build Nuclear weapons. I know analysts who were SURE about it......only the information was wrong.... It really pains me to say that I was wrong about them too....we had intel that "proved" the WoMD's and the Deep bunkers under the mountains....and all our sources were wrong.......to that end...when it comes to WoMD and it looks that sure...you are definately better off NOT waiting till one is used to make sure.... Yes as Commander in Chief it was Bush's call to go to war...but it was nearly unanimously approved by the House AND Senate because of what the House select committee for Intelligence saw, and what John Kerry and others on the Sennate Intelligence committee saw...had all those reports not agreed with the President....Congress would not have voted to empower him to go to war.....and they did.....despite the spin that is now put on it in an effort to gain a leg up in a tight election race. Anyway What JD said is also true. |
10-15-2004, 01:02 AM | #58 |
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I think we all need to remember that at the time, we wanted action, and whatever action Bush was going to suggest, Congress was going to follow it, as was the whole nation. When we decided to go to Iraq, we still had the "high" (or "low") of 9/11 on our minds and we were putting a lot of faith in the Prez.
Now Kerry supposedly sat on the Senate intelligence committee. Did he know all that Bush did? Who knows? Should he have shown up and been present more? You bet. And, where Iraq is concerned there is blame enough for all. |
10-17-2004, 02:04 PM | #59 | |
Symbol of Cyric
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Quote:
Here's a link for you guys. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html Nobody ever found Jimmy Hoffa's corpse, but they know he's dead.
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Morgan Corbesant, Elven BladeSinger, Captain of the army of the Seldarine<br /><br /> [img]\"http://www.rleeermey.com/images/linkbanners/usmcredwhiteblue.gif\" alt=\" - \" /><br />Protector of Elves<br />Slayer of Orcs<br /><br />ALL YOUR BASE, ARE BELONG TO US!!!<br />I DON\'T FIGHT FOR HONOR, I FIGHT TO WIN!<br />\"One who is a samurai must before all things keep constantly in mind, by day and by night...the fact that he has to die\". <br />-Daidoji Yuzan-<br />16th Century |
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10-17-2004, 02:08 PM | #60 |
Symbol of Cyric
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Morgan Corbesant, Elven BladeSinger, Captain of the army of the Seldarine<br /><br /> [img]\"http://www.rleeermey.com/images/linkbanners/usmcredwhiteblue.gif\" alt=\" - \" /><br />Protector of Elves<br />Slayer of Orcs<br /><br />ALL YOUR BASE, ARE BELONG TO US!!!<br />I DON\'T FIGHT FOR HONOR, I FIGHT TO WIN!<br />\"One who is a samurai must before all things keep constantly in mind, by day and by night...the fact that he has to die\". <br />-Daidoji Yuzan-<br />16th Century |
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