Should Stem cell research be funded by the Government?

[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by Sazerac: Cloudy, neither am I. It's the same objections I have against cloning. There's just too much room for exploitation.

I am against cloning too! The University of Tennessee cloned a Jersey Calf about two years ago. The Doctor that oversaw the project, was interviewed by the local newspaper, and he talked about how difficult a time that they had. She was the first success after several hundred tries. Most of the fetuses were either miscarried or had to be aborted because of deformities. He went on to talk about how they would have those same problems when trying to clone humans. He said a lot of the deformitiess would have been very severe, but that the fetus was viable, meaning that the calf could have at least lived for a time. They also had several calves that were born, that died soon after from immunity problems. He raised a lot of ethics questions concerning the cloning concerning humans, that frankly, I couldn't get around, like what do you do with babies that are born and look normal, but have severe immunity problems. He was not for human cloning based upon his experince. The whole thing kind of opened my eyes to all the problems out there. Also who raises these children from the experiments? That's my question. Do they become freaks in some sort of sick scientific side show like those oct-tuplets in Canada back in the thirties?

BTW Milly (that was the calf's name) was found dead out in her pasture about two or three months ago. She died of a severe blood disorder.


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Sir Taliesin



If they take my gun can I still use my Axe?

[This message has been edited by Sir Taliesin (edited 07-23-2001).]

[Fljotsdale]

Thanks for that info, Sir Taliesin. We in Britain still have Dolly the sheep surviving - at least I think so, I haven't read that she died, anyway - but they now know that cloning from adults doesn't work - the cells are too damaged by lifetime exposure to all sorts of agents, as well as the aging process. So the only 'viable' cells are those of embryos... so we are back to the original debate on the ethicality of using 'in-vitro' discards...

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Hi everyone! I was looking for some statistics involved with this disscussion. I did find out that they are very hard track down and that 40% of the couples that use the reproductive treatment donate the excess eggs to research. The IVF is a big and growing entity here. They say on the average they take about 10 eggs. 6 are used and the rest frozen most likely. I do beleive they discard eggs for different reasons at this point in time. Useing robotically powered needles the extractions are done(small,strong needle huh.?). Donors are paid money for eggs also.
Fljotsdale, I am really hesitant to answer.But I did say it and you are right to question it I promise everyone to be a little more careful of what I write and how I write it. I dont want this topic or any other topic to push people away but to draw people of all ages to join in.
Colossians1.16-17
Revelation7.4-5
Hebrews12.23
Why would the Bible talk about God not even missing a Sparrow when it fell. It seems to me that some people...maybe not me.. have predestined ultimate outcomes. There numbers have been counted before mybe they are even alive. I am suggesting That my thoughts on the subject of predestiny of life only go's this far. I could never beleive that we dont have free choices.
I wonder how many eggs have been taken from donors? The procedure of useing needles has been going on for a little over 10 years now in the US. I do think that Government intervention and funding should be in place. We could get some protocall on this subject then....... mybe.

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Conan ~*~

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Conan: [B Fljotsdale, I am really hesitant to answer.But I did say it and you are right to question it I promise everyone to be a little more careful of what I write and how I write it. I dont want this topic or any other topic to push people away but to draw people of all ages to join in. Colossians1.16-17 Revelation7.4-5 Hebrews12.23 Why would the Bible talk about God not even missing a Sparrow when it fell. It seems to me that some people...maybe not me.. have predestined ultimate outcomes. There numbers have been counted before mybe they are even alive. I am suggesting That my thoughts on the subject of predestiny of life only go's this far. I could never beleive that we dont have free choices.[/B]

Um. Conan - no disrespect intended, but how do those scriptures answer/prove the points:

1.God knows your name before you are born
2.All things hold together by Christs power
Pre-destined life is real.

The one in Hebrews says certian names are written in heaven, yes - but it doesn't say they were known to God before the people were born..

Revelation 7 just says the number who were to be granted heavenly life - but that is no different than saying there will be, for example, 7 people on a committee - (doesn't mean you have decided in advance who they will be) - it is just the number decided, not the people..

And Colossians says, in effect, that everything is in the right place at the right time... (which DOES answer point 2 though notice it is GOD who is acting THROUGH Jesus)

And I am afraid that God being AWARE of the fall of a sparrow doesn not mean God PLANNED the fall in advance...

I believe that the bible says God created man with free will. The whole exercise of life would otherwise be nothing but a game of whatever god/s there be. I have no wish to believe that - even though it sometimes LOOKS like we are just playthings..

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[Fljotsdale]

bumpin'. Too good to be on page 2 yet!

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Pontiff Opposes Use for Research. "In defending the right to life, in law and through a vabrant culture of life, America can show a world the path to a truly humane future which man remains the master, not the product of his tecnology", he said.

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*\Conan/*

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Um. Conan - no disrespect intended, but how do those scriptures answer/prove the points: 1.God knows your name before you are born 2.All things hold together by Christs power 3.Pre-destined life is real. The one in Hebrews says certian names are written in heaven, yes - but it doesn't say they were known to God before the people were born.. Revelation 7 just says the number who were to be granted heavenly life - but that is no different than saying there will be, for example, 7 people on a committee - (doesn't mean you have decided in advance who they will be) - it is just the number decided, not the people.. And Colossians says, in effect, that everything is in the right place at the right time... (which DOES answer point 2 though notice it is GOD who is acting THROUGH Jesus) And I am afraid that God being AWARE of the fall of a sparrow doesn not mean God PLANNED the fall in advance... I believe that the bible says God created man with free will. The whole exercise of life would otherwise be nothing but a game of whatever god/s there be. I have no wish to believe that - even though it sometimes LOOKS like we are just playthings..

Point 2:
Hebrews 1:3 "The son is......sustaining all things by his powerful word"

Fljotsdale, if God is truly outside time, then to him our choices have already happened. If our choices have already happened then of course he knows the results of our actions and knew that the fall would have taken place. There is too much brilliant planning evident in the "plot" for things to have gotten "out of control". It is through forgiveness and dying in our place that he is able to show an incredible amount of love to us.

Even as a mere human I know that if I put a small child in a room with a bowl of lollies and tell it not to touch it, that at least one lolly will be missing on my return. I know this yet I do not have foresight, nor did I design the small child, two things that are in Gods resume.

It wasn't a question of IF it was a question of WHEN humanity fell.

Actually you know what Fljotsdale, I've changed my mind. You're right....
It's all the womans fault!


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Yorick]

You know what acceptance of the above theology brings Fljotsdale? Guilt-free faith. I believe I'm made flawed and I'm loved and forgiven of anything I do. Because I want to be closer to God I try and walk the "straight and narrow" rather than out of fear or guilt.

Why "do the right thing"? I treat it like a relationship. If I keep doing wrong to my partner and keep apologising about the same thing over and over again, it affects my self respect and ability to talk to my partner. Any barrier between me and God is of my own making. He's already gone the extra mile, so I just make the attempt at contact no matter what and the barrier disappears.

Guilt-free faith.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Yorick: You know what acceptance of the above theology brings Fljotsdale? Guilt-free faith. I believe I'm made flawed and I'm loved and forgiven of anything I do. Because I want to be closer to God I try and walk the "straight and narrow" rather than out of fear or guilt. Why "do the right thing"? I treat it like a relationship. If I keep doing wrong to my partner and keep apologising about the same thing over and over again, it affects my self respect and ability to talk to my partner. Any barrier between me and God is of my own making. He's already gone the extra mile, so I just make the attempt at contact no matter what and the barrier disappears. Guilt-free faith.

And any barrier between us and God damages the relationship. I for one don't want any such barriers when I leave this existence.

Cloudy.... no, I just can't stay away! But am off for two days now.. see you all later!

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
Storm-Queen
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."