Question on Christianity.

[Yorick]

quote:

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Originally posted by fable:


But isn't that what I already wrote above, Yorick? My offer to add comments of the early Christian Fathers and from the Philokalia is meant to provide a service to everyone, drawing upon the grand mainstream Christian tradition, and without added commentary of my own. If you would prefer to find the comments of Gregory Palamas, Evagrios the Solitary, or Gregory of Nyssa, why, I will agree before the assembled throng not to stand in your way.

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I was merely pointing out what is good for the goose is good for the gander. I didn't make any suggestions about right and wrong, merely reminding you of your own suggestion to me. [img]smile.gif[/img] All in good spirit I assure you.

[fable]

quote:

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Originally posted by Yorick:



I was merely pointing out what is good for the goose is good for the gander. I didn't make any suggestions about right and wrong, merely reminding you of your own suggestion to me. [img]smile.gif[/img] All in good spirit I assure you.

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Yorick no offense taken. [img]smile.gif[/img] But if you would limit your posts on non-Christian religions to quotes from religious texts and I did the same for Christianity, I think we would probably prevent heartburn not only in one another, but in the moderators, too.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

This has been a very interesting - and civil - thread. The other Religion thread has also been relatively civil and "flame-free". I think ALL parties are to be commended for this.

Now then, I would like to re-address Gabriel's original question - "WHY is Satan considered evil".

The simple answer is "because the Bible says so" - but that doesn't really address the "why" part of the question. So here is as concise an explanation as I can offer.

WHY does the Bible call Satan evil? Satan was originally the most powerful angel, second only to God. But Satan wasn't willing to be second-best. He soon felt that...with enough help...he could overthrow God and then he would be the supreme ruler. He failed and was cast out of Heaven for his transgression.

Satan knows that Hell is his final destination, and there is nothing he can do to avoid it. So, he is spending all of his time trying to deceive, coerce, and lull as many souls as he can to join him.

Satan is NOT a "fictional boogeyman" meant to scare children. He is a living entity who still seeks to subvert God's will. The best way to do that - as mentioned in earlier posts - is to steal as many souls as possible from God. He was able to tempt Adam and Eve to go against God's will and he tried again when Jesus walked the Earth. Satan came to Jesus and tempted him with everything he had...but Jesus did NOT give in. Thus, Jesus defeated Satan. I believe it was Magik who correctly asserted that Satan will NOT rule in Hell...he will suffer just as much as everyone else.

God created Man in His own image and literally has an Infinite Love for His creation. Since Satan tries to thwart God's will, he is - by definition - "evil".

The Bible confirms this. Satan is referred to by many names.."the evil one", "lord of lies", "the deceiver", etc. Jesus and his apostles referred to Satan throughout the New Testament, warning believers to be wary of the spiritual warfare Satan conducts to lead Christians astray from God's Will.

Please note, this explanation is based SOLELY on the Christian faith and the Bible. I realize we have several members who do not accept the validity of the Bible...and that is fine. I'm not saying my religion is better than yours. I'm just trying to explain WHY Satan IS considered evil by the Christian religion.

[Yorick]

quote:

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Originally posted by fable:


Yorick no offense taken. [img]smile.gif[/img] But if you would limit your posts on non-Christian religions to quotes from religious texts and I did the same for Christianity, I think we would probably prevent heartburn not only in one another, but in the moderators, too.

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Yeah right. But then we would only speak of the distant past, and naught from today. [img]smile.gif[/img] A limp and hollow discourse 'twould be.

[fable]

quote:

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Originally posted by Yorick:


Yeah right. But then we would only speak of the distant past, and naught from today. [img]smile.gif[/img] A limp and hollow discourse 'twould be.

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A timeless discourse, IMO, and a good one. [img]smile.gif[/img] This forum isn't considering in its Satan/Lucifer/hell topic something of strictly national or temporal relevance, and the reflections of important Christian doctrinists from other times and places helps to cast different lights on the subject. There's a lot to be gained from reading the views and intuitions of great Christian mystics and scholars on a variety of religious issues. Just because I'm not a Judeo-Christian doesn't mean I can't learn from reading Pascal, Cassian or John of the Cross. Presumably Christians could get even more out of them, sharing certain fundamental religious views. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: fable ]

[Talthyr Malkaviel]

Oh yeah, there's another point about Satan that I didn't want to make in my last post because I had already rambled on enough.

Many ideas about Satan only came about when Christianity was trying to be more strictly introduced into England, and the popular image was of heaven and hell, which remain to this date.
Also, as some of you may know Satan is often visualised as having horns, and legs of a goat, and his 'star' represents the rough features of a goats head, and this image started in the periods in England and America when they had all the witch hunts.
All these images are actually derived from their wrong belief back then that witches were associated with the devil, so they pictured satan as the god many witches then worshipped, Pan the deity with goats legs, a human body and horns.
So in fact, many people see the devil from a very wrong perspective, as witches are and were definitely not satanists.

I know this wasn't really relative to Satans evilness, I just wanted to clear some preconceptions.

quote:

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Originally posted by Yorick:


Eh? Care to elaborate on this?

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Yes it happens all the time..you see people quoting the commandment "thou shalt not Kill" and will treat that as an absolute..which it most certainly is NOT

You see people quoting "Judge Not lest ye be judged" and assume we are not allowed to make moral assessments of the actions of other people which is NOT what the quote is ment to address.

It goes on and on and on and on and on..

Hope that is enough cause I dont feel like digging out more misquote and twisted phrases, but there are bunches.

quote:

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Originally posted by Garnet FalconDance:
[QB]MagiK,

I may simply be smarting under a certain chastisement received at your hand or totally misinterpreted your teasing but your post here brought a comment back to the fore....

QB]

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GF Sweetie [img]smile.gif[/img] that IM message was not ment as chastisement [img]smile.gif[/img] I was Joking more than serious, but the message was also a caution to remind you that we are all biased and have to guard against allowing our biases to interfere with our judgements. Im no less susceptible to this than you, and I include myself in that lil reminder [img]smile.gif[/img]

SO in pennance for hurting you with that IM I hereby offerup 3 full hours of my personal time to the most delicious hot oil massage you have ever had the next time we are in the same state [img]smile.gif[/img]

Offered up here in public so that I may not deny it [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Yorick]

quote:

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Originally posted by fable:


A timeless discourse, IMO, and a good one. [img]smile.gif[/img] This forum isn't considering in its Satan/Lucifer/hell topic something of strictly national or temporal relevance, and the reflections of important Christian doctrinists from other times and places helps to cast different lights on the subject. There's a lot to be gained from reading the views and intuitions of great Christian mystics and scholars on a variety of religious issues. Just because I'm not a Judeo-Christian doesn't mean I can't learn from reading Pascal, Cassian or John of the Cross. Presumably Christians could get even more out of them, sharing certain fundamental religious views. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Satan/Lucifer is of course not limited to Christian theology, but also Islamic and Jewish theology also.

Fable, at best all such "early fathers" writings do is analyse the Bible/Torah. Christians today have the source material, and additional perspective. It's a reasonable assertion to claim that Christian/Jewish/Islamic theologians should have a greater understanding of the character of God, the Holy Spirit, and Lucifer, than the early fathers as so much has passed and been viewed since then. From a Christian perspective, the Holy Spirit and Satan are very much alive and active, not confined to pages of history, or age old dissections. I could speak endlessly about Jesus love for me NOW.

But this is the problem with writing from the perspective of non-belief. It IS an inanimate subject with that perspective.

I used to have discussions with a woman named Fjlotsdale about this. She would reference only the written word of God (Logos), but not the spoken word of God (Rhema), and one truly needs BOTH for understanding, crossreferencing and testing.

[ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: Yorick ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Yorick:



I know that, but MagiK included me (for one) in his/her sweeping generalisation. I was wondering if he'd/she'd care to explain what in my post led him/her to do so.

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Ok first things first...Im a guy [img]smile.gif[/img] an old guy [img]smile.gif[/img]
I made sweeping generalisations on purpose NOT to include YOU per se, but everyone who fit the description. So in this case it should be taken as a "If the shoe fits" sort of thing [img]smile.gif[/img]

Hope that takes care of any personal angst twixt us [img]smile.gif[/img]