People who are clueless

[Blade]

Surfing my usual sights i came across this and it drove me nuts i can't believe people in this age still believe the stuff spiewed out about pegans in the dark ages. Any way here is the link to the page what does everyone here think about this? http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...ionworld%2Dhed

[ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: Blade ]

[fable]

Spewed during the Middle Ages...? You haven't heard some of the bigtime preachers in major churches in US metropolitan centers, lately. I still remember radio broadcasts a few years back by the minister of the First Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas--a sophisticated city of several million--saying that the law of the land should be changed to allow the stoning to death of pagans. I'm not saying that kind of thing happens all the time, but yes, it does get said, and it is often thought when it is not said.

Of course, there are also some pagans who make matters much worse. Some go out of their way to offend traditional Judeo-Christians; others are not pagan at all, but "commercial pagans," people in it for the publicity and money; and others misrepresent the religions they claim to follow. This Wiccan Priestess named "Witch" seems to belong the last category. The name itself seems to be an extravagant gesture designed to attract attention in a Judeo-Christian culture.

Kind of sad, really. There's no good reason why people of diverse religions simply cannot tolerate one another's presence, even when they find no commonality of purpose. But religion is a touchstone, and reveals less about the object of worship than it does about the inner balance of the worshipper, in every case.

[Blade]

Actualy what i ment by spewing in the dark ages was thats when it basicly started with the christian church and the state mergining into one entity. I have to agree about some "pegans" making the rest look bad, thoes are mainly the ones though who belive the holywood movies about withchcraft, sadly enough people take that stuff for real.

[fable]

Alas, it started long before the Roman Catholic Church, Blade. The biblical old testament demonized the Gods of other religions by turning them into devils, and wrote books in their bible that were little more than endless boasts about taking over the cities of heathens and putting all their men to the sword. The early Christians took over this deicentric viewpoint (and eventually applied it, irony of ironies, to the Jews, as well). So the Christians similarly demonize the Gods of others.

And it happened in Christianity long before they were elevated to the state religion of the Roman Empire. One reads in Gibbon, for example, that the Christians drew much hatred and scorn upon themselves by their active bigotry: they would regularly go to nearby "pagan" temples on a rampage, and destroy them. It was the size and popularity of the cult (especially its cultivation of the poor) that prevented the application of much restraint on the Christian cult, at least, after Nero's reign.

As for Hollywood witchcraft, I'm less annoyed at the hack studio writers than I am at those pagans who flaunt technicolor versions of the religion to get publicity for themselves and make things a little hot for everybody else. Just my POV.

[ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: fable ]

[Epona]

quote:

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Originally posted by fable:

And it happened in Christianity long before they were elevated to the state religion of the Roman Empire. One reads in Gibbon, for example, that the Christians drew much hatred and scorn upon themselves by their active bigotry: they would regularly go to nearby "pagan" temples on a rampage, and destroy them. It was the size and popularity of the cult (especially its cultivation of the poor) that prevented the application of much restraint on the Christian cult, at least, after Nero's reign.


[ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: fable ]

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Fable, it is worth bearing in mind before you quote Gibbon that he was writing more than a thousand years after the event, interpreting the Roman historians in his own way. Since there is plenty of Roman literature still available (including many of the historians used by Gibbon), it might have been better to use an example from something more contemporary [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Well, it is true to some extent that the early church distanced itself from pagan belief, but it is also the case that many pagan shrines were turned into christian churches in order to integrate the local populations, local pagan priests were converted and turned into saints, and pagan mythology and belief was integrated into Christianity (Saint Brigit?)
Christianity in Mexico is a good example of how Christianity has managed to adapt to absorb non-Christian tradition in an attempt (largely successful) to win over the pagan population - day of the dead (and you can't get more pagan than that) is celebrated with as much gusto as is any Christian festival.

Easter is a pagan celebration which has been kidnapped by Christianity, as is Christmas.

[Garnet FalconDance]

Hmmm, a week to go to the full moon and there are two, count them--*two* threads about paganism! Hmmmm......

Agreed about some pagans being a little too in-your-face and/or commercialized. Some seem to be 'in' in for the sensationalism only, which makes it very difficult for the rest of us regular folks.

While I do not typically recommend Silver RavenWolf or any of her multitude of Wiccan fluff-bunny books (they *do* have value, tho) primarilly because of her over-commercialism, I had an opportunity to meet her last May at a camp out. I braced myself for some New Age twit (unfair of me to make that assumption!) but was fortunate to share a dinner of burritos and tacos with a very down-to-earth, exhausted woman who had just been told her travel agent had failed to confirm her return tickets and she didn't know if she had a way home or to her next engagement. And Dorothy Morrison is the same....salt-of-the-earth. I suppose it's all the media glare and the band wagon effect that blinds us at times.

My daughter recently asked if she could have a skate party for her birthday in June. (like I'm planning that far ahead!) She also asked if I'd take off my pentacle (which is in celtic knotwork and very small, hardly noticeable) and not wear my hat with the "Witch" or "Naughty Witch " pin. Her friends don't know she's pagan (her best does and has no prob) and she doesn't want them to 'hate' her. Needless to say, we had a little talk!

In the end, I asked her if she would consider it proper or fair for me to ask the other mothers to not wear their crosses/crucifixes and other religious pins/medals/icons because they were not a part of my religion. Of course, she said no, it would not be right! So, then, why should I hide?

[fable]

quote:

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Originally posted by Epona:


Fable, it is worth bearing in mind before you quote Gibbon that he was writing more than a thousand years after the event, interpreting the Roman historians in his own way. Since there is plenty of Roman literature still available (including many of the historians used by Gibbon), it might have been better to use an example from something more contemporary [img]tongue.gif[/img]

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Or, it might have been better to use a world famous, respected history like Gibbon's that everybody has access to, in order to check for my accuracy, instead of referring to contemporaneous Roman documents written in Latin. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Well, it is true to some extent that the early church distanced itself from pagan belief, but it is also the case that many pagan shrines were turned into christian churches in order to integrate the local populations, local pagan priests were converted and turned into saints, and pagan mythology and belief was integrated into Christianity (Saint Brigit?)

They didn't "distance" themselves from pagan belief: they ordered the wholesale destruction of pagan temples and sacred artifacts, as was reported not only by outsiders, but the early Church Fathers, themselves; for they were very proud of this. They then rebuilt their own churches on the same ground, takinga advantage of the "holiness" of the sites. Such integration as occurred was limited to minor details, like the use of phallic-inspired churchly spires, or trees at Yule/Christmas, etc.

And I've yet to encounter an instance of a local pagan priest who was "converted," as you state, in reading on the subject for nearly thirty years. They were dismissed, or killed. When the Christians moved in, they moved in their own trustworthy religious hierarchy. And that's perfectly understandable.

Christianity in Mexico is a good example of how Christianity has managed to adapt to absorb non-Christian tradition in an attempt (largely successful) to win over the pagan population - day of the dead (and you can't get more pagan than that) is celebrated with as much gusto as is any Christian festival.

We were discussing the European Middle Ages, not 20th century Mexico; but you're right, Santaria is an interesting example of how the RCC, unable to enforce its worship with anything like the uniformity or vigor attempted earlier in Europe, became absorbed itself into a nation's ancient religious practices. Christianity, in much of South America, is part of a much larger pantheon of animist worship. [/QB][/QUOTE]

[Garnet FalconDance]

Epona, while what you say has validity, in all my study of history (religious and otherwise), Fable is closer to what I've discovered in the Christianity vs. Pagan arena. Not *all* early church fathers were as fanatic and destructive, of course, but a good many were. And they were very charismatic, which meant they were able to rouse the common folk into a riotous frenzy bent on the throwing down of the 'demons' of the Old Ways and the 'cleansing' of the land for the glory of Christ. Read particularly some accounts of the approach of the first milennium (actually seems to have run on a 500 year cycle).

[fable]

Wiccan fluff-bunny books...

What an excellent way of referring to 'em...! But I agree, at the same time, she emphasizes Wicca as a part of daily life, and a positive part, at that: as all religion should be, rather than something one does a single day out of the week (or month) for tangible social benefit and little else. There's a lot of good, practical, well-organized info in her books. Now, if she could just drop the Nancy Drew covers, the AD&D name, and the "sweet Nature" attitude...

I've always been hesitant about wearing any religious jewelry (including a silver pentagram necklace I made about twenty-five years ago, in which I take pride) in public. I've lost one job to my religious beliefs in the past, and so I've spent the past twenty-three years largely as a solitaire. But I applaud you for taking a stand of this sort. I just hope it doesn't backfire on your child.

[Epona]

Garnet and Fable, I agree with most of what you are saying - but I do have a thing about Gibbon which is the main reason I jumped in. IMO he is not 'all-that', and yes, I would rather go back to the Latin (or in many cases Greek) documentation for a more accurate assessment, cutting out the middle-man.

And actually it was Fable who mentioned Rome (I am an archaeologist, my main area of interest being Roman Britain/Europe so it was that that caught my eye - and I haven't seen too much evidence of pagan temple burning that early - later is a different matter and I accept that point) I hope no-one took offence!