well- heres one of those sorta opinionated topics

[NobleNick]

kartetse,

No summoning = ouch. If you want a Specialist who has Evoker skills and does not lose summoning (or anything else that most folks consider vital) specialize in Illusionist.

warnie,

1.) Druid or Cleric? Assuming HoW is installed: both AND neither! My choice would be Fighter9-->Druid DC AND Fighter9-->Cleric DC. The Druid's shapeshifting comes in handy on occasion; but his spells rock all the time! The Cleric is more defensive/healing spells; but his "Turn Undead" abilities are critical at a few points in HoW and TotLM. Overall the Cleric's skills are more critically needed by the party than the Druid's (but the Druid's spells are much more fun!).

2.) Though I had initial doubts, I must agree with Dundee on Paladins: they can pull their weight and make excellent tanks. They are not as effective at dishing out melee damage as a Fighter IF the Fighter has his wits about him; but the Pally's saving bonuses and immunities make him look really good when the Fighter is standing stone-still with drool coming out the corner of his mouth because he missed his saving throw. The second biggest drawback to a Pally (in my opinion) is the inability to greatly increase THAC0 through weapon specialization; but this disadvantage is obviated in the late game if you specialize in the right weapon. (Biggest drawback to the Pally? Can't DC him!!)

3.) Mage: Evocation and Conjuror spells (like Fireball and monster summoning spells) are "must haves." Other spells I use often (even in HoW and TotLM): Magic Missile; Aganazzar's Scorcher; Improved Invisibility; Stinking Cloud, Skull Trap; Blur; Mirror Image; Stoneskin; and (if you don't have a Bard) Identify.

Cleric: Animate Skeleton(?); Silence; Prayer and Recitation (they can be stacked!) [NOT Chant]; Raise Dead; Resurrection; Flame Strike; Cure Disease; Cure Poison; a sampling of the other "condition curative" spells; and Heal (the 100% Heal). If no Bard, then also memorize lesser healing spells. I know I am missing some good Cleric spells.

4.) MultiClass (MC)? Maybe 1. Dual Class (DC)? How about 5! I usually go with 4 or 5 DC characters. The only reason I don't go with more is that only humans can DC and I need at least one non-human for infravision. Here is my current party (currently in TotLM) as best I remember their stats:

1. Cleric(11)-->Fighter(13)
2. Ranger(10)-->Cleric(13)
3. Fighter(10)-->Druid(14)
4. Fighter(9)-->Thief(15)
5. Bard(17)
6. MC Thief(12)/Illusionist(10)

This 6 member team has 5 total spell casters, 4 VERY TOUGH (with the Bard singing) frontline fighter-types, 3 members who can hide in shadows, and a total of 12 impressive skill sets. (I count the Bard as 2 skill sets: Bard unique skills (a.k.a. songs), and mage skills. [I would keep the Bard even if she couldn't cast a single mage spell!])

And this is possible through the use of DC! MC is not as satisfactory, because you don't get max HPs per character level, and you are stuck with a 50/50 split between the two classes.

The single biggest thing I wish I would have done differently with the party above? With a Bard in the party, make PC #6 a DC Thief(10)-->Illusionist !!

Here is another team destined for HoW/TotLM:

1.) Paladin
2.) Fighter(12)-->Conjuror ("battle mage")
3.) Fighter(9)-->Evoker ("battle mage")
4.) Cleric(12)-->Fighter
5.) Fighter(9)-->Cleric
6.) MC Thief/Illusionist

(Ooooh, I hurts not to put a Bard in this party! I started it before I installed HoW.)

Even if you are not doing HoW; what Mage, Cleric or Thief would not benefit by starting out with Fighter(6) stats [or even Fighter(3) for the impatient]?

What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[warnie]

well that makes for interesting reading

ill look at me pally a little duffrent now!

cheeers

[pritchke]

These are a list of Wizard spells I like to use, there are others I like but these are ones I almost always use or are some of my favorite.

Level 1
I recommend memorizing one of these spells from the start
-Chromatic Orb Evocation
-Magic Missile Evocation

Possibly take this as your second spell to slow down and delay enemies, very good early on and latter can be used with entangle or web to allow your party to decimate the enemy with missile weapons
-Grease Conjuration

If your playing a multi or dual fighter/mage than these are a must have, they do very nice damage. Early single class mages may have a tough time getting in to use these as they require you to get close. A thief mage could also use these effectively but I have never tried it before although I can see it being more reliable than a backstab.
-Shocking Grasp Alteration
-Burning Hands Alteration

This is sometimes a nice spell to have to save money, however if you have a Bard you probably will not need it. So identify is a toss up even if I pick it I would not waste more than 1 spell slot on it.
-Identify Divination

Level 2

-Agannazar's Scorcher Evocation "Yes a must have nice against trolls"
-Melf's Acid Arrow Conjuration/Summoning "Yes, good against trolls and spell casters"
-Mirror Image Illusion/Phantasm "A must have for mages, with this who needs a thief to disarm traps"
-Resist Fear Abjuration "Nice to have as nothing is more annoying than having party members to scared to do anything"
-Web "Very nice spell, a must have in my books."

Level 3
- Dispel Magic Abjuration "A must have to take away those annoying spells cast on your members
- Fireball Evocation "Very nice spell for doing mass damage, watch your party members"
- Haste Alteration "A must have to increase the speed of your party, making fighters slicing and dicing machines "
- Protection from Normal Missiles Abjuration "For me I only use this spell in one part of the game, but for that little area it is a must have."
- Skull Trap Necromancy "I would not say a must have but one of my favorites"
- Vampiric Touch Necromancy "Must have for battle mages, do damage and heal yourself"

Level 4
Actually almost all these spells are pretty decent but my two favorite are
-Stoneskin Evocation
-Vitriolic Sphere Conjuration "Another nice acid spell with splash damage"

Level 5
Another level with some nice spells to consider. My favorites
-Conjure ??? Elemental Conjuration/Summoning Probably the best, most accurate summons spell in the game
-Sunfire Invocation - This spell is great for Fighter mages and solo characters. Actually it is probably my favorite spell when going solo. Problem with this spell is you have to be far enough ahead and surrounded by enemies. If the enemies survive a normal mage will find himself in big trouble.

Level 6
These are the ones I use from 6
-Death Fog Alteration, Evocation
-Disintegrate Alteration (Works well on those tough monsters like cyclops and Ettins)
-Globe of Invulnerability Abjuration
-Monster Summoning IV (Summons are starting to become more than just fodder)

Level 7 - All spells can be used but the most reliable are
-Acid Storm "I love acid spells so this is great"
-Monster Summoning V "Monsters just keep getting better"

Level 8
-Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting "Best spell at this level, one of my favorites."
-Monster Summoning VI "More summons"

Level 9 - Only two spells use them.
- Monster Summoning VII Conjuration/Summoning
- Power Word: Kill Conjuration/Summoning


[ 11-21-2003, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

[pritchke]

Now for Priest spells

Level 1
-Bless Cleric, Druid
-Entangle Druid "Must have"
-Remove Fear Cleric, Druid "Fear is annoying"
-Sanctuary "Great spell especially at later levels"

Level 2
-Alicorn Lance Druid "As well as almost always doing damage it also makes the target easier to hit giving it a -2 penalty to its AC for 3 rounds"
-Flame Blade Druid "Good for disposing of trolls"

Level 3
-Animate Dead Cleric - At level 3 this spell is great
-Circle of Bones Cleric "This is a defensive spell that does damage so it can be used with Sanctuary - Hint!Hint!"
-Moonblade Druid - Very effective against undead, best with fighter druids
-Spike Growth Druid - I use this all the time, great spell

Level 4
- Cure Serious Wounds "The other spells are good but I don't use them all the time and if I have this one I will use it."

Level 5
- Spike Stones Druid "Another great druid spell"
- Undead Ward Cleric "Undead don't stand a chance"

Level 6 - Some good spells the ones below need no explanation
-Conjure Fire Elemental Druid
-Entropy Shield Cleric, Druid "OK so this one isn't so straight forward. This spell gives the priest a +6 bonus to armor class and a 50% resistance to most attack forms: electricity, fire, cold and so on. It also gives the caster +2 to all their saving throws and immunity to all missile-based attacks."
-Heal

Level 7 - When you reach this level you are in good shape, try out the spells to see what you like best. The ones below are ones that I often use. It is good to be a druid.
-Conjure Earth Elemental Druid
-Creeping Doom Druid
-Destruction Cleric
-Earthquake Druid
-Fire Storm Druid
-Impervious Sanctity of the Mind Cleric, Druid
-Resurrection Cleric
-Stalker Druid

[ 11-21-2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

[Dundee Slaytern]

It must be noted that Paladins are not always necessarily behind a pureclass Fighter in terms of damage and THAC0 due to one simple reason.

Spell Buffers.

A Paladin can cast Draw Upon Holy Might for example and gain 25 STR/DEX/CON. He can also make use of spells (especially those that are cast-on-self) to become a Holy Juggernaut of Arse-Kicking and Indestructability.

Trivia of the day: The Paladin's innate PfEvil spell lasts for several hours and can be stacked with the normal Cleric version PfEvil AND PfEvil 10' Radius, which effectively means that short of Dispel Magic and map-area travelling, you can have a permanent PfEvil which is stackable with the other PfEvil spells.

[ 11-22-2003, 02:27 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

[kartetse]

[img]graemlins/knightsmile.gif[/img]
As I said, I like my Pally.

Question, NobleNick: Can a bard actually cast spells? I see you can write magic to her book but they are all greyed out, afterwards. Just thought of something - would that be because of chailmail, perhaps?!

And, next time I'll get a specialist Illiussionist - I'm stuck now though!

---

kartetse

---------------------
do da do, kick da goo and stay outta da zoo...

[motub]

Yes, no mage can cast spells while in armor. Take the armor off, and the cast spells button will become active (it's magic! )

[NobleNick]

Thank's for the Pally lesson, Dundee!

kartetse,

I second motub's post.

I had forgotten about the armor thing, since my Bard has long worn a special armor available (random item, IIRC) in Severed Hand.

Since you have your Bard available to pick up spells from your specialist's opposition schools, you should fare O.K. The main (but not too serious) problem will be that your fighters lose their War Chant bonuses every time your Bard stops singing to throw a spell. The really useful Conjuration spells are very often thrown before melee action is engaged (at least, that's what I do).

What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[Roboghost]

1. Priests: Me greedy; like 'em both. Pure class one of them and multi/dual the other--the only way to go.

2. Paladin is too hard to roll: you need an 18/00 Str to make them a killer. They need that "Reckless Action" ring for the extra attack that a fighter gets. They can then be equipped with a Blur belt, +2 helm, +4 shield, and -1 armor to help offset the negative effects of that ring. They also get that yummy sword (+7 for Evil folks). Their "Good" alignment can prevent them from using a couple of nice fighter items though [Bone belt and ring].

3. Spells (it depends on where in game [undead, for example]) in level order:

Cleric: Prayer, Recitation, Protection from Evil, 10', Heal

Druid: Entangle, Spike Growth, Static Charge, Fire Elemental, Stalker

Mage: Chromatic Orb/Magic Missile, Web, Stinking Cloud, Invisibility, Acid/Flame Arrow, Emotion: Courage/Hope, Feeblemind, Disintegrate, Shades, Mass Invisibility, Finger of Death, Mind Blank (yes!), Monster Summoning (most).

Note I don't like to use area effect spells except to get the battle off and running--Death Fog or Acid Storm, for example. Also note that the Greater Malison/Chaos combo can be a life saver in BIG (non-undead) crowds as well--although I'm greedy for the points I miss when they kill each other! Example: I was playing the Castle (the big download) and three mages slaughtered me with their dispel and summons, but I came back strong with the above combo on those summons--and returned the favor for the 2nd go-a-round.

4. Multiclass:

5-6 party = one (thief only)
4-5 party = two
3-4 party = three
1-3 party = all

Note that I'm running a dual-class Fighter/Cleric that burns the house down--since I carried her to 13th level Fighter first. She joins the chopping party between buffs and heals. Also, with her 19 Str, her sling gives my Fighter/Thief a run for her money--even with the best bow I can buy 'er.

[kartetse]

Originally posted by NobleNick: Thank's for the Pally lesson, Dundee! kartetse, I second motub's post. I had forgotten about the armor thing, since my Bard has long worn a special armor available (random item, IIRC) in Severed Hand. ... The really useful Conjuration spells are very often thrown before melee action is engaged (at least, that's what I do) ...

Yah, me seems to remember that special armour thingey as well, isn't it a cape of sorts?

What I like about my pally is that he can cast the Chant while really not losing much of his access to he spells/special abilities. Remember I have 2X cleric/fighter/dwarf DC's and they are mainly my tanks while my pally has Pale Justice and Sseth's fast bow which nine times out of ten disrupts opposing spell casters before they can do much damage.
[img]graemlins/shine.gif[/img]

Oh yes, since last night I've taken off my bard's chainmail and have since been able to (at long last!) use Melf's acid arrow as well as some Monster conjuration spells! [PHEW!]

BTW. I've also decided to follow your suggested route (in another post) of HOW and TOTL before going to The Borrow In the East {see I can also hide spoilers } I'll start that tonight.

---

kartetse

---------------------
do da do, kick da goo and stay outta da zoo...