Cloning, genetic engineering, eugenics

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

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Originally posted by andora20:
Sorry about the last quote, but unfortunately, yes, when we donate cells at the moment, they have to be allowed to form a human Embryo before we can get anything usefull out of it. A human Embryo contains stem cells which after a time develope into organs like the brain or liver. That is why it is so controversial. Should we be allowed to grow a new life ie Embryo just to harvest it for our own uses? I suppose it depends on when you believe life starts.............

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What is it they use bovine embryos for? I thought they used them to help cultivate human tissue with human cells.

Not arguing, but I'm terribly uninformed. I putting together bits of news stories...

[andora20]

Of all the terms coined by scientists which have entered popular vocabulary, 'clone' has become one of the more emotive. Strictly speaking a clone refers to one or more offspring derived from a single ancestor, whose genetic composition is identical to that of the ancestor. No sex is involved in the production of clones, and since sex is the normal means by which new genetic material is introduced during procreation, clones have no choice but to have the same genes as their single parent. In the same way, a clone of cells refers simply to the descendants of a single parental cell. As such, adult organisms can be viewed as clones because all their parts stem from the single cell which is the fertilised egg. Likewise, many tumours are clones, derived from one aberrant cell which no longer obeys the normal rules of growth control. The offspring of organisms which reproduce asexually, like corals, are also clones; as are identical twins produced by the natural, or sometimes deliberate, splitting of a single embryo. Members of a clone are genetically identical and genetic identity has given cloning an additional more technical meaning: namely the procedures used to create a new organism whose genetic constitution is a replica of another existing individual. Such a feat can be achieved by substituting the nucleus, which contains the genes, from one of the cells making up that individual's body, for the nucleus of a fertilised egg.
Quoted from an essay by Rossa Beddington on Mamalain Developement. Or alternatively you can try out this link, done by a High School Senior for more info

http://cloning.tripod.com/

[Morgan_Corbesant]

i feel that anything that can help with fixing genetic defects is good. people will have the ability to live a normal life, and not have to "be without". if i could be sure that i wouldnt get a disease, or my children wont be brain-damaged when born, then i would do it. i dont believe in "cloneing" however. that is only going to make the human genetic makeup weaker over time, and make us MORE suseptable to these things we are trying to fix. IMHO that is.

[Fljotsdale]

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:


I think you make an interesting point, but I don't think all human cloning comes from human embryo's does it? I could be wrong.

Seems to me, if through research, you could find a way to clone healthy human cells this would be a viable option. Say for instance if I could donate cells, and they could in turn "grow" something useful to help someone else. This to me would be no more offensive than organ donation, and even better because I would live through it [img]smile.gif[/img]

Kind of like the experiment where they grew a human ear on the back of a mouse.(who the heck came up with that idea) I don't recall that being work with embryos.

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Hi, Ronn! [img]smile.gif[/img]

If it was just a matter of taking some of your own cells and they could be made to grow into an organ to replace a defective one it might be ok. But that isn't how it works. A clone can certainly be grown from one of your own cells BUT it automatically becomes a human embryo because they have to place your cell into a human egg cell that has had its natural nucleus removed. The nucleus of your cell becomes the nucleus of the egg cell and develops as though it had been fertilised (not sure of all the details, but that is roughly it), if that egg cell with your genetic material in it is then placed into a uterus it stands a chance of surviving to become a human baby - though not as good a chance as a naturally fertilised egg, because it has been messed with. But it is as human as you are, even though a clone of you. It is also NOT a perfect clone. They have found out that, in some way they are not sure of, the genetic material of the donated egg cell is also present even though they didn't think it could be because the nucleus containing that genetic material had been removed.... (No, I don't understand this either....! )

Anyway, the cells are living, human, and could potentially become a baby.

IMO, stripping out the stem cells - thus killing the embryo - is murder. Just because some people prefer to believe it is 'just a bunch of dead cells' and 'not human' doesn't alter the facts. The cells ARE alive AND human. They would be worthless if they were dead/not human.
Anyway - big argument and I could get VERY heated so I'd better shut up! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Fljotsdale]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:


What is it they use bovine embryos for? I thought they used them to help cultivate human tissue with human cells.

Not arguing, but I'm terribly uninformed. I putting together bits of news stories...

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I believe they have used bovine egg cells (minus nucleus) as the receptacles for human cells. The egg is then grown on... But since they have discovered that genetic material from the empty egg is incorporated into the growing cells...... The mind boggles.... Maybe we will clone ourselves back to the primeval soup...... [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img]

[Aelia Jusa]

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Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:


If you're going to sterilise all women who smoke/drink enough to damage an unborn child, then you are talking about a LOT of people here. By that token, I would have been sterilised during my early twenties, and so would most of my female friends.

In my earlier years (ie. twenties and early thirties) I had what is euphemistically termed 'a severe drug/alcohol problem'. These days, I don't drink, smoke or do drugs, in fact, I don't even take the drugs that most people accept as a normal part of an everyday life, such as coffee, tea and sugar. What price redemption??

However, I agree that alcoholics and drug users having children can often be extremely problematic. I have seen some of the results, and they are appalling and tragic. However, not always. A very good friend of mine took cocaine throughout the early part of her pregnancy, washed down with copious amounts of alcohol.

Once she found out she was pregnant, she stopped all that, although was not able to completely stop smoking. (She did cut right down however.) She is an excellent mother, except for her propensity to smoke around her child, and in fact, having the child led to her changing her lifestyle and has been the making of her, as she is the first to admit. Again, what price redemption?

I don't know what the answer is.

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Yes, I agree that sterilisation is far too extreme in cases like this. You're basically saying that these women will never be fit mothers; even though at present they certainly may not be, there is no reason to think in the future they can't be redeemed. It would be nice if there were some temporary fix, where if they did sober up it could be reversed or removed, but I don't know if even this would be acceptable to many - civil liberties and all that.

Just a question, Cheetah - how do you avoid sugar? Do you not eat fruit? Vegetables? Bread? (Need I go on?)

[Zbyszek]

[img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img] I have never proposed to sterilize you Cheetach, nor any smoking or drinking women btw [img]smile.gif[/img] , you like to exaggerate (just like me [img]smile.gif[/img] ). But basically you gave me splendid idea: lets make all girls below lets say 25 years old unable to give birth to children. And then maybe exam of maturity? eh.. you will not agree.

As far as I know some tissues can be produced from tissues not from embryos. For example skin, not sure about liver.

My old question: should we tolarate procreation of people who can not care about themselves, people which have to cared by state? If we know that next generation also will be unable to live in society? Do we want to be superior at least in comparison with them?
Why not sterilize murderers, people prosecuted for sexual crimes?

In my opinion people who are unable to support themselves should be allowed to have children - how they want to support them?
We give food help to other countries, why not to spice it to decrease their reproduction. We feed them, they procreate, and we have more people to feed.
All life is blessed, we should not kill.
Do you have cat or dog? If you have dog you spank him, you forbid him to piss your furniture, to eat your carpet. If he bite you you punish him. If he goes mad you decide to put him asleep.
Do you have female cat in house? cats like freedom, do you let her be free? In such case you sterilize her to not have next 5 cats every time she could.
Why do you believe that humans are different, better? You feel responsible?

[Melusine]

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Originally posted by Aelia Jusa:



Just a question, Cheetah - how do you avoid sugar? Do you not eat fruit? Vegetables? Bread? (Need I go on?)

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I'm just making an assumption here based on my own diet:
I think she does eat fruit, as natural sugars (fructose) are a different matter, and doesn't eat anything with refined sugar, i.e. candy, cakes, cookies, soft drinks etc. Your body makes glucose out of bread and veggies, yes, but that's entirely different from the sugar you get when you drink a glass of coke.
I need to follow a 'sugar-free' diet due to my illness, but it doesn't mean you actually do not eat a single form of sugar... For me, maltose and fructose are ok, but refined sugar is forbidden. I would think it is similar for Silver Cheetah. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Sorry for the off-topic, everybody! [img]smile.gif[/img]