either you're with us or with the terrorists....

[Yorick]

Originally posted by G'kar: Thanks for making that great anology, it was so thoughtful and poignant. The criminal acts happened on american soil, so american law applies. The us already has indictments out for foriegners and if/when they are extradited here, they will get the due proccess of american justice system. Thats it im really done now...Innoccent til proven guilty in a court of law.All criminals, be they terrorists or muggers. The model for civilized justice in many places through out the world, but not every where. I think the international crime tribunal, or what ever its called should be in charge. No fair trial in america could be had. Several judges have suspened/postponed unrelated trials invloving arab decended defendants because of concern that emotional bias would cloud the jurors fair judgement, I see alot of that happening recently.

I was talking about Afgahni laws on Afgahni soil! It is not for one nation to adjudicate on the validity of anothers justice system, or is it? Perhaps the international community should invade America because they still have the death penalty.

You cannot, cannot presume American justice to apply globally. It is the hight of imperialistic arrogance to do so. Bin Laden has done nothing wrong in the eyes of his Wahabi Sunni supporters in Afgahnistan, which was why I made the analogy. They would actually be breaking Islamic law in handing him over.

Problem time yes?


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Yorick]

The above is why I stated in Diogenes thread that we must be honest about calling this a war.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Liliara]

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: Ummm...What does this mean? Give him up to who? To themselves? To a lynch mob? To just let him go?

Just making a VERY obvious point that I feal should be kept in mind when talking about bin Laden. Even if this hadn't been started as a war, it would have soon turned into one, when once again, we were refused access to bin Laden by the Taliban. Even if it had been the right recourse for his actions, a criminal trial would never have been possible given the stand of the Taliban on handing him over.

Oh, and PLEASE don't bring up the giving them proof subject. They would have found something wrong with it even if we had pictures of him smiling at the airport seeing them off while handing them boxcutters.



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Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member

And you never did think that it ever would happen again, in America did you? And you never did think that we'd ever get together again, but we damn sure fooled ya. We're walkin' real proud and we're talkin' real loud again, in America. And you never did think that it ever would happen again.... (Charlie Daniels)

[Djinn Raffo]

I say again:

Originally posted by Liliara: Our government was perfectly willing to give up Mcveigh.

Ummm...What does this mean? Give him up to who? To themselves? To a lynch mob? To just let him go?

Its clear to me that emotion has tangled up the argument on this thread, I'm not going there anymore. I can't understand the double standards. crimes for some, acts of war for others. Mcviegh commited an act of war, a terrorist act of war, and recieved american justice for a criminal act, oh yeah hes an american, so he gets a trial before he is executed. Double standard, oh no, these terrorists are at war with us. what was mcveigh? at peace? just a criminal? would we have this arguement if mcviegh had managed to kill 10,000? International law, us law, afgan law,...what ever.
good night




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Peace be with you

[Liliara]

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: I say again: Ummm...What does this mean? Give him up to who? To themselves? To a lynch mob? To just let him go?

O.K., what I meant is that Mcveigh really isn't any comparison here. There was not a government who would not give him up to face justice. This is a different animal and this is only a small point to be made for this fact. Mcveigh was involved in a domestic attack.

I guess that maybe I should have spelled it out originally to avoid this confusion.

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Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member

And you never did think that it ever would happen again, in America did you? And you never did think that we'd ever get together again, but we damn sure fooled ya. We're walkin' real proud and we're talkin' real loud again, in America. And you never did think that it ever would happen again.... (Charlie Daniels)

[This message has been edited by Liliara (edited 09-25-2001).]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by G'kar: Its clear to me that emotion has tangled up the argument on this thread, I'm not going there anymore. I can't understand the double standards. crimes for some, acts of war for others. Mcviegh commited an act of war, a terrorist act of war, and recieved american justice for a criminal act, oh yeah hes an american, so he gets a trial before he is executed. Double standard, oh no, these terrorists are at war with us. what was mcveigh? at peace? just a criminal? would we have this arguement if mcviegh had managed to kill 10,000? International law, us law, afgan law,...what ever. good night

Totally different. McVeigh was a citizen and resident of the country the crimes occured in.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Liliara]

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: I say again: Ummm...What does this mean? Give him up to who? To themselves? To a lynch mob? To just let him go?

O.K. I looked over that a little more closely and I can see where I might not have come accross very clearly. My bad!



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Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member

And you never did think that it ever would happen again, in America did you? And you never did think that we'd ever get together again, but we damn sure fooled ya. We're walkin' real proud and we're talkin' real loud again, in America. And you never did think that it ever would happen again.... (Charlie Daniels)

Originally posted by Yorick: Totally different. McVeigh was a citizen and resident of the country the crimes occured in.

yes I see. perhaps a look at the the way the U.S. deals with criminals that are citizens of another country who commit/condone criminal acts on U.S.soil would enlighten me on how this situation is totally different. We gave other terrorist from other countries fair trials in america and they commited those acts that they were tried for outside the boundaries of the 50 states, albiet, embassies and warships count as u.s. soil. My point, and argue with it if you can is these were not u.s. citizens and they got u.s. justice in u.s. courts. They got the same court system mcviegh did for similar actss. So its not really totally different. Please show me how it is. please.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by G'kar: yes I see. perhaps a look at the the way the U.S. deals with criminals that are citizens of another country who commit/condone criminal acts on U.S.soil would enlighten me on how this situation is totally different. We gave other terrorist from other countries fair trials in america and they commited those acts that they were tried for outside the boundaries of the 50 states, albiet, embassies and warships count as u.s. soil. My point, and argue with it if you can is these were not u.s. citizens and they got u.s. justice in u.s. courts. They got the same court system mcviegh did for similar actss. So its not really totally different. Please show me how it is. please.

G'kar. The difference is that the USA would not hand over "criminals" who broke laws the USA feels are unjust.
Wahabi Sunni Islamic extremists regard the USA as a den of evil. Of moral corruption. Of Imperialists whose presence on the holy soil of Arabia (under the Sauds) is an extreme offense.
Their interpretation of Islamic law creates a society totally different from the west. It is wrong for them to hand a muslim over to non-muslims.
With McVeigh it was cut and dried. US national commits crime on US soil, and is arrested in America.
Here we have forien national conspiring to a crime on US soil, but not something considered a crime in the land he is residing.

Big difference.

Enter the quagmire of international relations, and thus War as a solution of extreme last resort.


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 09-25-2001).]