German faces jail for 'ironic' remark on message board

[Grojlach]

German faces jail for 'ironic' remark

A German man could be jailed for three years over a comment posted on the internet in which he is accused of approving of the events of 11 September.
In a case which critics say has major implications for freedom of speech on the internet, Holger Voss stands accused of "glorification of a criminal act".
Mr Voss, who will appear in court in the western German town of Muenster on Wednesday, insists his comments were meant to be sarcastic.
He had written a final sentence at the foot of his remarks - posted last summer on the Telepolis message board - which he says indicates that the sentiments expressed were not to be taken seriously.
"The court will decide whether he did indeed mean them ironically, and if so, whether or not that makes any difference," court spokesman Juergen Wrobel told BBC News Online.

Anonymous tip-off
The apparently offending remarks were made in response to a message posted by another internet user - Engine_of_Aggression - who appeared to be pleased about the alleged murders of thousands of Taleban fighters by local militias during the downfall of the Afghan regime in 2001.
"Congratulations to the people, who in this over-critical time, dare to grab evil at its root and eradicate it from the face of the earth!" wrote Engine_of_Aggression.
Mr Voss, who describes himself as an anti-militarist, responded:
"Yes, Congratulations to the murderers of 11.09.01.... Good, that on 11.09 a couple of real men (!) found the courage to show the evil ones, the USA how it really is!"
An anonymous complaint to the police led to the prosecution under a German law which forbids the glorification of a criminal act.
In a statement posted on the anti-censorship site Stop1984, Mr Voss insists he was attempting to display the hypocrisy in valuing American lives over others.
The suit has also sparked controversy as the prosecution forced the owner of the discussion board to hand over details about Mr Voss.

Source: BBC

So much for freedom of speech on the Internet... Even though the remark was in very poor taste, a simple ban from that forum would have sufficed as well, I think. This is way over the top.
Quite an interesting case, this... If the guy is punished for this "crime", it could change discussions online forever; because it would give the opportunity for more people to be prosecuted for the things they say online. Heck, I've seen even worse posts than the one this Mr. Voss made online shortly after 9/11 and some still pop up every once and awhile, in the current debates about Iraq for example. But to make it a punishable crime? Maybe it is by law, and perhaps the "anonymity" online is giving people the feeling they can say whatever the heck they want without ever being confronted with the consequences of those words directly. But if they're gonna prosecute this guy, you would be opening a large can of worms... There are thousands of other cases of verbal violations of the law on the Internet just waiting to be opened.
This could change an awful lot in the world of message boards...

[ 01-09-2003, 06:23 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

[Borvik]

Maybe one should take into consideration, that germans have a special problem with the so called freedom of speech. And I'm not talking about the events in the 30's and 40's. I'm talking about the struggle, to get even with their past - if that's ever possible...
You know what happens, when a german denies the holocaust? I mean world wide? Every german will be considered a nazi again. Thats maybe a bit extreme, but I hope it illustrates a bit, what I intend to say.
And what is the freedom of speech exactly? Am I obligated, to say everything, that comes into my mind, without thinking. IMO it involves also a lot of responsibility.

[Ronn_Bman]

Waaaaay too much attention given to a stupid remark, even if he meant it literally.

I think he's a jerk, not a criminal.

[Sio]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: Waaaaay too much attention given to a stupid remark, even if he meant it literally. I think he's a jerk, not a criminal.

Here Here

[WillowIX]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: Waaaaay too much attention given to a stupid remark, even if he meant it literally. I think he's a jerk, not a criminal.

I concur with the above statement. I am reminded of the bus driver who told his travellers he was taking them to the Talibans. A stupid and careless remark, though IMO not criminal.

[Sir Krustin]

Puhlease, don't they have any rapists or muggers to arrest?

These "there oughta be a law" types need to be shot (not killed, just kneecapped...)

One more reason why I am glad I am a citizen of ther USA and not the country of my ancestors.

[Attalus]

One of the characteristics of some bureauctratic Germans (and other nationalities) that I have met is an extreme regard for the letter of the law. Perhaps this is an example.

[Grungi]

who decides which law is which? thats the problem, hes being condemned under german law for glorification of another countries crime? how does that work, utterly stupid, because following the whole premise i could go to germany sit on a machine and say its fine that they bomb the taliban and NOT be punished (despite murder being a crime if war is murder too) yet saying its against america and i get done? eh???? if they set a precedant with this then you could interpret anything said online in anyway, what if i say the klingons being murdered in star trek was a good thing, thats glorification of a crime and not a german crime, admittedly a fictional one, but a foreign law all the same then effectively i could be taken to court for it, just because im glorifying something illegal, oh man what a bunch of idiots [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[johnny]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: Waaaaay too much attention given to a stupid remark, even if he meant it literally. I think he's a jerk, not a criminal.

That's very well spoken. We have a similar discussion going on here. The wife of the president of the European Bank, Gretta Duisenberg, was traveling through Palestinian territory this week, and she made statements on TV, saying she could understand why Palestinians gave their lifes im suicide attacks. Imo, that's one of the dumbest things one could say on national television, but she did it nonetheless. You won't believe how much attention things like this get in the media. Who IS that woman anyway ? Why all the media attention for someone who's not well in the head ?