Smoking Ban part 2, original by Timber Loftis

[WillowIX]

Originally posted by LordKathen: quote: Originally posted by WillowIX: Oh and *ignores LordK*

Nice... [/QUOTE]You asked for it. Do you want me to reply to your post that you yourself quoted? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Thorfinn]

It may be that you are right, Willow but benzene is also formed through natural processes. It is a normal combustion product, and firefighters in evergreen stands get thousands or millions of times the 1 hour exposure limit on a regular basis. If cancer were really that easy to get, we would have all died off long ago from the smoky fires in caves, and certainly the rather long lifespans we see particularly in Scandanavian and Native American populations could not have occurred in societies requiring fire to keep from freezing to death...

[WillowIX]

Originally posted by Thorfinn: It may be that you are right, Willow but benzene is also formed through natural processes. It is a normal combustion product, and firefighters in evergreen stands get thousands or millions of times the 1 hour exposure limit on a regular basis. If cancer were really that easy to get, we would have all died off long ago from the smoky fires in caves, and certainly the rather long lifespans we see particularly in Scandanavian and Native American populations could not have occurred in societies requiring fire to keep from freezing to death...

Did you read my earlier post about cancer? I'm not going to post that again so I advice you go back a page or two. But let me ask you this. If you were to paint a room. Would you then sit in it admiring your work while the paint dried?

[Thorfinn]

Incidentally, this is probably going to show my age, but back when I took organic chem lab in college, and the end of lab period, we rinsed our hands off with benzene to remove any traces of nasty organic chemicals. I may develop cancer from having immersed my hands and forearms in benzene for half a minute, twice a week, for 3 semesters, but it hasn't happened yet...

[Thorfinn]

Willow, I did read it. You posted it at least twice, as I recall, and it has been quoted at least twice. Believe me, I have seen it. Did you read my post? If cancer were really as easy to get as you imply, humans would no longer be on this earth.

[EDIT]
No, I wouldn't. I have better things to do with my life than watch paint dry...
[/EDIT]

[ 05-13-2003, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: Thorfinn ]

Originally posted by WillowIX: [No MagiK that's where you are wrong. It DOES NOT take long term exposure. All it takes is one molecule in the wrong place. Now perhaps you can begin to grasp my deep disgust of governmental research. You are picking nits..it takes LONG TERM exposure for the chances of that molecule to hit the exact correct spot, at the exact correct time...all you seem to be doing is playing a semantics game with numbers. Yeah I might hit a golf ball that strikes a gopher rebounds, strikes my caddy on the head then flies into a tree where a squirel grabs it in mid air, and carries it to the hole I intended to hit it too and thus I get a hole in one...all it would take is one swing thus you can say it could happen ....but I would have to swing for years and years and years for that to actually happen.

I agree with you Willow, that smoking is a less than intelligent past time. But it is not up to you or me to force our opinions on those who choose to smoke...we can just choose to not be around them.

Originally posted by Thorfinn: Incidentally, this is probably going to show my age, but back when I took organic chem lab in college, and the end of lab period, we rinsed our hands off with benzene to remove any traces of nasty organic chemicals. I may develop cancer from having immersed my hands and forearms in benzene for half a minute, twice a week, for 3 semesters, but it hasn't happened yet... I was going to bring this up as well, in the Navy as late as 1988 we used various forms of what are now labeled "carcinogenic compunds" Benzene included to wash our hands at the end of each watch cycle. Hundreds of thousands of US sailors exposing themselves regularly every day...me included...well it's been 13 years and Im still cancer free...oops just felt a lump appear on my prostate...must go get checked

[ 05-13-2003, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[WillowIX]

Originally posted by MagiK: You are picking nits..it takes LONG TERM exposure for the chances of that molecule to hit the exact correct spot, at the exact correct time...all you seem to be doing is playing a semantics game with numbers. Yeah I might hit a golf ball that strikes a gopher rebounds, strikes my caddy on the head then flies into a tree where a squirel grabs it in mid air, and carries it to the hole I intended to hit it too and thus I get a hole in one...all it would take is one swing thus you can say it could happen ....but I would have to swing for years and years and years for that to actually happen.No you wouldn't. Some people are more prone to hit gophers with golf balls, ehh develop tumors I mean. You can't really advice people on cancer by talking about chances MagiK. It simply does not work. "Well since you have been smoking for 14 years you now have a 32 % chance of getting cancer." Stop thinking theoretical and think medical instead and you will get what I am after. BTW this gold font is nifty.

I agree with you Willow, that smoking is a less than intelligent past time. But it is not up to you or me to force our opinions on those who choose to smoke...we can just choose to not be around them. I fail to see why this argument has to be thrown out every time. Nowhere have I tried to force my opinion on anyone, be them smokers or not. So save it for those who need it MagiK.

Edit: BTW why did we get stuck on Benzene? Thorfinn made an excellent calculation. Now multyply the number of carcinogens in the air with about 2,000 to account for them all.

[ 05-13-2003, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: WillowIX ]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by WillowIX: quote: Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: I do have severe sinus attacks sometimes, but these are caused by naturally occurring pollen. Admittedly, cigarette smoke aggravates my sinuses during these attacks, but it does not CAUSE the attacks itself.

I'm sorry to bust your bubble but you can not with certainty say that. Effects from second hand smoke will take a VERY long time to assert themselves. I am talking about 30+ years. You see a tumor does not appear after one mutation. It takes at least 3 mutations for a tumor to develop. I am not trying to "scare" you in any way Cerek. [img]smile.gif[/img]
*snip since I addressed the last part in another post*[/QUOTE]Excuse me, Willow, but I most assuredly can say that with absolute certainty. We've seen the testimony of others with respiratory problems and how even the slightest exposure to cigarette smoke can have a very serious effect on them.

That does not occur with my condition. It is a form of hayfever or allergy to something organic in the air {never have found out exactly what}. When the pollen count is high, my allergies are activated (I admit some of the confusion my be from my tendency to use the term "sinus attack" rather than allergic reaction - but after years of complaining that my allergies were acting up, I just find it easier to say I'm having a sinus attack - it requires less explanation). I have been exposed to cigarette smoke my entire life. My wife is a smoker. If my "sinus attacks" OR "allergic reactions" were triggered by cigarette smoke, then I would be in a constant state of misery. But I'm not. Why?? Because cigarette smoke has nothing to do with my allergies. It does aggravate the condition (just like bright colors increase the pain from a headache) but it does not cause the allergies or sinus attack. In fact, cigarette smoke does not bother me at all when my allergies (or sinus) are inactive. I even find the odor oddly pleasant times. So my "bubble" is still firmly intact.

As for scaring me with your talk of tumors, I'm afraid you'll have to do much better than that. I was diagnosed with Chron's Disease at the age of 21. I went through many severe attacks from the disease. This led to recurring bouts of athritis and chronic pain - all before the age of 30. I've had 3 major surgeries - the last of which resulted in my entire colon being removed because the disease had killed it completely. I took a "maintenance dose" of Prednisone every day for over 10 years. I'm sure you are aware of the numerous side effects that are clinically proven to result from such long term use of that wonderful drug. I stand a FAR better chance of developing serious health conditions from this medically prescribed pharmaceutical than I do from ALL the second-hand cigarette smoke I've been exposed to.

I also stand a very good chance of eventually developing cancer from my Chron's - most likely in the form of colon cancer (not an entirely accurate description in my case) within the remaining intestinal tract. I have regular check-ups and exams due to the Chron's. My hospital stays (more frequent than my surgeries) have included abdominal and chest X-Rays - so if there was a "suspicious spot" on my lungs, I feel certain it would have been spotted by now.

So no worries about your warnings "scaring me". I fully accept the fact that my death will most likely result from a medical condition. I also accept the fact that it could easily happen at any given moment because I have faced that situation also. My last surgery was a result of my necrotic colon rupturing suddenly and completely. Due to several factors, it was 30 hours before I was able to actually get inside of an O.R. room. Needless to say, I had rampant peritonitis by then. So much so that the surgeon told my wife and mother that I would not survive the next 72 hours, because he felt it was only a matter of time before the peritonitis entered my bloodstream. By the Grace of God, it did not. If it had, it would have been the end of Cerek's story then and there.

So I accept that each day I have is "borrowed time" and I do my best to cherish every moment.

[Thorfinn]

MagiK, I don't want to know how you felt the lump on your prostate...

Holy cow, Cerek. I had no idea. That is always the other guy. I have only known one other person with your condition, but I never knew it was that serious.

/me makes note to include Cerek and Brian in prayer list...

[ 05-13-2003, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Thorfinn ]