Contradictions in religion (spin-off from the gay marriage 2 thread)

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

Could you explain the DNA thing a little bit more? Are you saying that Jesus is only half-god? God HAD Mary's consent. He sent the archangel ahead and had him ask her. She replied that "his will be done" and thus was impregnated.

A child get half of its genetic code from each parent. Thats why children have features similar to both parents and can inherit diseases as well as height body type, eye color and mannerisms. If god didnt zap Mary with a little more than some holy spirit there wouldnt be sufficient genetic material to even begin to create life. As far as sending an arch angel goes, its a great idea if you believe in fairy tales. According to the bible you couldnt go to the corner store without tripping over an angel. It seems rather odd though that they have all disapeard in the last 2000 years.

You forget that God is not human like I tried to explain so different standards apply.

Ahhhhh, but the bible says that we are made in gods own image, hence he IS a human. Either that or I have just pointed out another inconsistancy.

For example: It would not be wise for a human to try to walk on water because he CAN'T and would probably drown. Jesus however CAN walk on water so there's no problem with that. God is no hypocrite he just happens to be a lot wiser and thus needs no regulations like we humans do. You wouldn't allow a 5-year old to drive a car yet you probably do it yourself. Does this make you a hypocrite?

I may not be able to walk on water, but David Copperfield can. Does that make him Jesus?? Also , who says that god is all that wise, and where does wisdom make one exempt from the laws?? If being smart made you above the law ,then the Unabomber would be out walking the streets.

[Chewbacca]

If I look at the Hebrew definition of the word murder, as presented above, it seems synomynous with the word kill and goes so far to indicate that even accidental killing would fall into this category. Of course the exact meaning of words used so long ago are always going to have a question mark hovering around them, simply because they are so old IMO.

I have managed people as a career, and in doing so I have had to set clear expectations in order to get what I wanted accomplished specifically. If I were to set expectations with the intention of allowing exceptions, It does serve purpose and logic to include these exceptions in my specific expectations. If my underlings assumed any exceptions <-[edit corrected wrong word!] to my rules then they do so at the risk of consequence.

My point is, if someone is going to use thou shall not kill as a moral rule of life, considering the consequences of implying exceptions to the rule is paramount.

Now to get back to the contradiction of the rule, considering exceptions are not assumed and the bible is being looked upon as a strict moral authority:

Consider Exodus 32
http://webchapel-x.com/kjvb/EXO32.HTML

27-"And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour." 28-" And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men."

This is not in alignment with thou shall not kill. Only with finding, in other parts of the bible, reconciliation of the contradiction with perhaps "turn the other cheek", or "do unto to others" or "on Earth peace and goodwill towards men" can we find a moral lesson here that is worthy (IMO).

Now lets assume that killing is allowed, that the unspoken exception is indeed the rule and killing is allowed for reasons "good" for society, why were these people killed? Because they were dancing around a golden calf? Because they were worshiping a false Idol? And did God particularly care they were killed? It seems not, God seemed more concerned that the people had worshiped a false idol. Not once is Moses reprimanded for inciting killing. God doesnt even seemed concerned Moses drop and broke the tablets with his laws on them, one of those laws being "thou shall not kill". This hardly seems to meet any moral standard that would allow an exception to a rule against killing, therefore contradicts the rule even with exceptions.

[ 08-14-2003, 03:11 AM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: A child get half of its genetic code from each parent.

That's why we believe Jesus was FULLY God and FULLY human. Not half and half. God living as a human. "God with us" as Emmanuel means.

As far as the adultery claim goes, for starters Mary was not married. Adultery is when a married person has sexual relations outside of marriage. So if anything it was premarital fornication. However there was no sex, she was made pregnant.

Are women who are artificially inseminated considered to have had sex with the doctor that implants the sperm? Or even to have had sex with the man whose sperm it is? Having sex, and fertilising an ovary are two different things. Both can happen without the other.

Therefore, God did not have sex, adultery or premarital fornication with Mary. He "divinely inseminated her" you could say, and did so with her blessing, approval and consent.

[Timber Loftis]

My wife, who went to Catholic school grades 4-College, says there are certainly many well-known contradictions in the Bible. Her paper for her 400-level theology course focused on different places in bible, specifically 2 passages in books, where one instructs women to cover their head and one states that God instructs otherwise. Her library at a Catholic University contained many texts where theologians would argue vehemently over whether these contradictions existed or not.

Only only in the last decade years did the Pope recognize that the world was flat and was not the center of the universe (via official Papal declaration), after hundreds of years of the church's assertions otherwise -- remember Galileo's famous ex-communication?

As well, she remembers there being several contradictions cited between Luke and John gospels.

Sorry we don't have specifics.

[ 08-14-2003, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: My wife, who went to Catholic school grades 4-College, says there are certainly many well-known contradictions in the Bible. Her paper for her 400-level theology course focused on different places in bible, specifically 2 passages in books, where one instructs women to cover their head and one states that God instructs otherwise. Her library at a Catholic University contained many texts where theologians would argue vehemently over whether these contradictions existed or not. Only only in the last decade years did the Pope recognize that the world was flat and was not the center of the universe (via official Papal declaration), after hundreds of years of the church's assertions otherwise -- remember Galileo's famous ex-communication? As well, she remembers there being several contradictions cited between Luke and John gospels. Sorry we don't have specifics.

Timber, a specific reference is vital. You really should post it without one, as a rebuttal is nigh impossible. You could claim anything is in the bible, and what is the respondant to do?

"Is not"
"Is so"
"Is not"

Sorry mate. Please, post the proof (reference), so I can refute/elaborate, or simply remove the claim. [img]smile.gif[/img]

As far as theologians arguments, they finish once it is explained. Someone brings something up, it is answered. Theologians argue over interpretations, translations, true meanings yes sure, but not inconsistencies. As I've said, the OVERWHELMING majority of bible scholars are united in their opinion of biblical consistency, the crossreferencing and historical validity.

As to the "earth is flat" issue, you are bringing up an error of Catholic dogma, not a biblical inconsistency or falsehood. In Job, the oldest book in the bible, written about 4,000 years ago, the earth is described as suspended in space, not as being flat. Space is absence of any thing. Nothing.

Job 26:7
He spreads out the northern skies over empty space;
he suspends the earth over nothing.

In Isaih, the earth is described as "a circle". The Hebrew word used for "circle" also means "sphere". (more on this in the quote and link)

Isaiah 40:22
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth

So the bible speaks of the earth as a circle in space. Hardly nonscientific or inconsistent with either itself, or science.

In fact, here is a list of things the bible spoke of, well before scientific knowledge of the thing that science eventually found to be true.


from here: http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml

The Bible is not a science book, yet it is scientifically accurate. We are not aware of any scientific evidence that contradicts the Bible. We have listed statements on this page that are consistent with known scientific facts. Many of them were listed in the Bible hundreds or even thousands of years before being recorded elsewhere. Many concepts and notes on this page are adapted from ideas and statements that appear in The DEFENDER’S Study Bible.[1] Statements Consistent With Paleontology Dinosaurs are referred to in several Bible books. The book of Job describes two dinosaurs. One is described in chapter 40 starting at verse 15, and the other in chapter 41 starting at verse 1. We think you will agree that 1½ chapters about dinosaurs is a lot—since most people do not even realize that they are mentioned in the Bible. (Actually reading the Bible would help, though. ) Click this sentence to see our Dinosaurs page if you would like more information in this subject area. Statements Consistent With Astronomy The Bible frequently refers to the great number of stars in the heavens. Here are two examples. Genesis 22:17 Blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. Jeremiah 33:22 “As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.” - Even today, scientists admit that they do not know how many stars there are. Only about 3,000 can be seen with the naked eye. We have seen estimates of 1021 stars—which is a lot of stars.[2] (The number of grains of sand on the earth’s seashores is estimated to be 1025. As scientists discover more stars, wouldn’t it be interesting to discover that these two numbers match?) The Bible also says that each star is unique. 1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. - All stars look alike to the naked eye.* Even when seen through a telescope, they seem to be just points of light. However, analysis of their light spectra reveals that each is unique and different from all others.[1] (*Note: We understand that people can perceive some slight difference in color and apparent brightness when looking at stars with the naked eye, but we would not expect a person living in the first century A.D. to claim they differ from one another.) The Bible describes the precision of movement in the universe. Jeremiah 31:35,36 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for a light by day, The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, Who disturbs the sea, And its waves roar (The LORD of hosts is His name): “If those ordinances depart From before Me, says the LORD, Then the seed of Israel shall also cease From being a nation before Me forever.” The Bible describes the suspension of the Earth in space. Job 26:7 He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing. Statements Consistent With Meteorology The Bible describes the circulation of the atmosphere. Ecclesiastes 1:6 The wind goes toward the south, And turns around to the north; The wind whirls about continually, And comes again on its circuit. The Bible includes some principles of fluid dynamics. Job 28:25 To establish a weight for the wind, And apportion the waters by measure. - The fact that air has weight was proven scientifically only about 300 years ago. The relative weights of air and water are needed for the efficient functioning of the world’s hydrologic cycle, which in turn sustains life on the earth.[1] (If you are a physics enthusiast, please ignore our omission of the terms mass, gravity, and density from this comment.) Statements Consistent With Biology The book of Leviticus (written prior to 1400 BC) describes the value of blood. Leviticus 17:11 ‘For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’ - The blood carries water and nourishment to every cell, maintains the body’s temperature, and removes the waste material of the body’s cells. The blood also carries oxygen from the lungs throughout the body. In 1616, William Harvey discovered that blood circulation is the key factor in physical life—confirming what the Bible revealed 3,000 years earlier.[1] The Bible describes biogenesis (the development of living organisms from other living organisms) and the stability of each kind of living organism. Genesis 1:11,12 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. - The phrase “according to its kind” occurs repeatedly, stressing the reproductive integrity of each kind of animal and plant. Today we know this occurs because all of these reproductive systems are programmed by their genetic codes.[1] The Bible describes the chemical nature of flesh. Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return. - It is a proven fact that a person’s mental and spiritual health is strongly correlated with physical health.[1] The Bible revealed this to us with these statements (and others) written by King Solomon about 950 BC. Proverbs 12:4 An excellent wife is the crown of her husband, But she who causes shame is like rottenness in his bones. Proverbs 14:30 A sound heart is life to the body, But envy is rottenness to the bones. Proverbs 15:30 The light of the eyes rejoices the heart, And a good report makes the bones healthy. Proverbs 16:24 Pleasant words are like a honeycomb, Sweetness to the soul and health to the bones. Proverbs 17:22 A merry heart does good, like medicine, But a broken spirit dries the bones. Statements Consistent With Anthropology We have cave paintings and other evidence that people inhabited caves. The Bible also describes cave men. Job 30:5,6 They were driven out from among men, They shouted at them as at a thief. They had to live in the clefts of the valleys, In caves of the earth and the rocks. - Note that these were not ape-men, but descendants of those who scattered from Babel. They were driven from the community by those tribes who competed successfully for the more desirable regions of the earth. Then for some reason they deteriorated mentally, physically, and spiritually.[1] (Go into a bad part of your town and you will see this concept in action today.) Statements Consistent With Hydrology The bible includes reasonably complete descriptions of the hydrologic cycle.[3] Psalm 135:7 He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; He makes lightning for the rain; He brings the wind out of His treasuries. Jeremiah 10:13 When He utters His voice, There is a multitude of waters in the heavens: “And He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth. He makes lightning for the rain, He brings the wind out of His treasuries.” - In these verses you can see several phases of the hydrologic cycle—the worldwide processes of evaporation, translation aloft by atmospheric circulation, condensation with electrical discharges, and precipitation.[1] Job 36:27-29 For He draws up drops of water, Which distill as rain from the mist, Which the clouds drop down And pour abundantly on man. Indeed, can anyone understand the spreading of clouds, The thunder from His canopy? - This simple verse has remarkable scientific insight. The drops of water which eventually pour down as rain first become vapor and then condense to tiny liquid water droplets in the clouds. These finally coalesce into drops large enough to overcome the updrafts that suspend them in the air.[1] The Bible describes the recirculation of water. Ecclesiastes 1:7 All the rivers run into the sea, Yet the sea is not full; To the place from which the rivers come, There they return again. Isaiah 55:10 For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater, The Bible refers to the surprising amount of water that can be held as condensation in clouds. Job 26:8 He binds up the water in His thick clouds, Yet the clouds are not broken under it. Job 37:11 Also with moisture He saturates the thick clouds; He scatters His bright clouds. Hydrothermal vents[4] are described in two books of the Bible written before 1400BC—more than 3,000 years before their discovery by science. Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. Job 38:16 Have you entered the springs of the sea? Or have you walked in search of the depths? We discuss the “fountains of the great deep” further in our Creation Versus Evolution page. Statements Consistent With Geology The Bible describes the Earth’s crust (along with a comment on astronomy). Jeremiah 31:37 Thus says the LORD: “If heaven above can be measured, And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel For all that they have done, says the LORD.” - Although some scientists claim that they have now measured the size of the universe, it is interesting to note that every human attempt to drill through the earth’s crust to the plastic mantle beneath has, thus far, ended in failure.[1] The Bible described the shape of the earth centuries before people thought that the earth was spherical. Isaiah 40:22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. The word translated “circle” here is the Hebrew word chuwg which is also translated “circuit,” or “compass” (depending on the context). That is, it indicates something spherical, rounded, or arched—not something that is flat or square. The book of Isaiah was written sometime between 740 and 680 BC. This is at least 300 years before Aristotle suggested that the earth might be a sphere in this book On the Heavens. This brings up an important historical note related to this topic. Many people are aware of the conflict between Galileo and the Roman Catholic Pope, Paul V. After publishing A Dialogue on the Two Principal Systems of the World, Galileo was summoned to Rome, where he was forced to renounce his findings. (At that time, “theologians” of the Roman Catholic Church maintained that the Earth was the center of the universe, and to assert otherwise was deemed heretical.) We could not find any place in the Bible that claims that the Earth is flat, or that it is the center of the universe. History shows that this conflict, which took place at the time of the Inquisition, was part of a power struggle. As a result, scientific and biblical knowledge became casualties—an effect we still feel to this day. Statements Consistent With Physics The Bible suggests the presence of nuclear processes like those we associate with nuclear weaponry. This is certainly not something that could have been explained in 67 AD using known scientific principles (when Peter wrote the following verse). 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. The television is a practical (if not always worthwhile ) device that uses electromagnetic waves (which transmit its video signal). The Bible contains passages that describe something like television—something that allows everyone on earth see a single event. (Note: such passages typically refer to the end of time. It may not be long before all of us learn for sure whether the Bible is true or not.) Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Revelation 11:9-11 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. Things In The Bible That Science Can Not Explain The purpose of this page is not to explain what a great science text the Bible is, but to show that it is consistent with scientific facts. Still, the Bible mentions some things that we can not explain. Yet, if God is really God, He should have the ability to do some things we can not explain. In the last 100 years (and especially in the last ten) scientists discovered many proofs that confirm the Bible’s accuracy. Since these proofs support the accuracy of the text we can understand scientifically, it makes sense to trust the Bible’s text that we can not yet understand. (For example, how many people knew what hydrothermal vents were 30 years ago?) If you would like to see the proof we have for the accuracy of the Bible, click on the link below. How Do You Know The Bible Is True? If you like reading books, a good one that addresses the facts that support Christianity is Know Why You Believe by Paul Little. There is an advantage to a book—it does not change as a page on the Internet can. Plus, a million copies of Paul Little’s book have been printed (about 40 times the number required to be called a “best seller”) which proves it is not an isolated person’s opinion. References [1] The DEFENDER’S Study Bible, Word Publishing, Grand Rapids, Michigan (1995). [2] The Number of Stars [3] The Hydrologic Cycle [4] Submarine Volcanic Ecosystems (An article on hydrothermal vents)

[ 08-14-2003, 01:52 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Faceman]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: A child get half of its genetic code from each parent. Thats why children have features similar to both parents and can inherit diseases as well as height body type, eye color and mannerisms. If god didnt zap Mary with a little more than some holy spirit there wouldnt be sufficient genetic material to even begin to create life. As far as sending an arch angel goes, its a great idea if you believe in fairy tales. According to the bible you couldnt go to the corner store without tripping over an angel. It seems rather odd though that they have all disapeard in the last 2000 years.

Okay, that's what you meant. I know my biology 101 but I wasn't sure if you were talking about the godly nature of Jesus. Now this one is easy to contradict: "God is omnipotent" if he wants to conjure up a child with full godly nature but in flesh inside Mary's womb he just does so. Insufficient genetic material my ass!
So let me get this straight: You believe in god but you do not believe in angels and therefore you think god is a rapist.
I am confused.

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: Ahhhhh, but the bible says that we are made in gods own image, hence he IS a human. Either that or I have just pointed out another inconsistancy.

And the picture in my driving license is also human because it was made in my image!
God didn't craft us to be like him but at the most to look like him.

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: I may not be able to walk on water, but David Copperfield can. Does that make him Jesus??

David Copperfield CANNOT walk on water, he can only create the illusion he is.

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: Also , who says that god is all that wise, and where does wisdom make one exempt from the laws?? If being smart made you above the law ,then the Unabomber would be out walking the streets.

The Bible says that god is all wise and after all that's our discussion topic. If you assume that god is stupid, mortal and ugly you can easily prove that he's a crook.
But most people who believe in and talk about God assume him to be omniescent.
Being smart does not put you above the law. but god is not being "smart". He knows EVERYTHING. This is about that much a difference as between living long (e.g. 500 years) and being immortal (i.e. NEVER EVER DIE).

[Chewbacca]

I think I finally found "my" bible: The skeptics annotated bible
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.html


Now to continue the contradictions surrounding thou shall not kill, and the idea that nations waring is an exception to the rule. I offer this line from Isaiah 2:4
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/is/2.html

And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Furthermore Romans 15:33 says:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/rom/15.html

15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

Now looking for moral clarity on the issue of war in the Bible, I would take this as evidence that God intends there to be no war but alas contradictions exist. I mentioned one in my last post, here is another:
Psalms 18:34
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/18.html#34

18:34 He teacheth my hands to war, so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.

A full overveiw of concerning war/peace can be found here:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/peace.html

A full overview of killing/shall not kill can be found here:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/kill.html

We can all enter the Bible in a search engine and find one so we can read all of these in context and decide for ourselves.

Which is ultimatly my point in exploring the contradictions of the bible and any other literature I study for a moral compass while on the earth. If taken at face value and with-out question the bible or the koran will not neccessarily lead us down a path of peacefulness and wholesomness, but both have the potential if one uses the gift of discernment to decide for themselves what really is wrong and right, good and bad and of course whether or not these contradictions actually exist.

Sorry if I got up on the soapbox a bit with my last paragraph.

[Faceman]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: If I look at the Hebrew definition of the word murder, as presented above, it seems synomynous with the word kill and goes so far to indicate that even accidental killing would fall into this category. Of course the exact meaning of words used so long ago are always going to have a question mark hovering around them, simply because they are so old IMO.

My point was that even if the word meant "kill" too the exceptions just were extremely obvious to the Hebrews as a consequence of their historical context.

I have managed people as a career, and in doing so I have had to set clear expectations in order to get what I wanted accomplished specifically. If I were to set expectations with the intention of allowing exceptions, It does serve purpose and logic to include these exceptions in my specific expectations. If my underlings assumed any exceptions <-[edit corrected wrong word!] to my rules then they do so at the risk of consequence.

The most important thing of the ten commandements is that they are short. If Moses had brought down a 2000 pages book of law from Sinai they'd probably have stoned him. So he arrived with ten short and significant sentences. Exact specifications of the law (when am I required to kill anyway) may have been subjected to "ask Moses" or even "ask god" and/or written down later in the books of Levitikus and Numeri (and partly in some other books too).

Now to get back to the contradiction of the rule, considering exceptions are not assumed and the bible is being looked upon as a strict moral authority: Consider Exodus 32 http://webchapel-x.com/kjvb/EXO32.HTML quote: 27-"And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour." 28-" And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men."

This is not in alignment with thou shall not kill. Only with finding, in other parts of the bible, reconciliation of the contradiction with perhaps "turn the other cheek", or "do unto to others" or "on Earth peace and goodwill towards men" can we find a moral lesson here that is worthy (IMO).[/QUOTE]I agree of course (how oculd I not) that assuming there are no exceptions that this is contradictory.

Now lets assume that killing is allowed, that the unspoken exception is indeed the rule and killing is allowed for reasons "good" for society, why were these people killed? Because they were dancing around a golden calf? Because they were worshiping a false Idol? And did God particularly care they were killed? It seems not, God seemed more concerned that the people had worshiped a false idol. Not once is Moses reprimanded for inciting killing. God doesnt even seemed concerned Moses drop and broke the tablets with his laws on them, one of those laws being "thou shall not kill". This hardly seems to meet any moral standard that would allow an exception to a rule against killing, therefore contradicts the rule even with exceptions.

Heresy was a VERY harsh crime back then and for centuries after that not only in Hebrew/Christian culture (Inquisition anyone?) but in every other main culture. After all Sokrates for example was executed on counts of heresy.
As back then religion was synonymous with society who denies god denies society and these are not people you want to drag along for fourty years in the desert. I agree that from a modern point of view that there are alternatives (like make the disbelievers split and go about their own business in the desert) but back then there was only one answer to heresy. So I think if viewed inside the historical context this is not a contradiction. However I concede that due to a change of that context during time New Testament offers a different set of laws than Old Testament. Yet these are not contradictions but "upgrades". After all Jesus was frequently quoting the old scriptures to interprete them in a more modern way.
Also "Thou shall not murder" (my first suggestion) does not state "Thou shall not kill unless you have a good reason" but rather "Thou shall not kill unless required by law (or god)" much alike the way it is handled in almost every book of law nowadays: Murder is unlawful but killing in war is not considered murder (if it happens according to the laws of war) and therefore not subjected to punishment. Executions which still happen in some countries are killing required by law and therefore no "murder".

[ 08-14-2003, 04:02 AM: Message edited by: Faceman ]

[Faceman]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Which is ultimatly my point in exploring the contradictions of the bible and any other literature I study for a moral compass while on the earth. If taken at face value and with-out question the bible or the koran will not neccessarily lead us down a path of peacefulness and wholesomness, but both have the potential if one uses the gift of discernment to decide for themselves what really is wrong and right, good and bad and of course whether or not these contradictions actually exist.

Excellent point!
I too use the Bible for moral advice but as an agnostic I find it easy not to get into it to literally and to put the things in context. Most religious texts may it be the Bible, the Koran, the Veda, ... contain very pure and distilled wisdom of ages in the most basic things of life. It is your own task to interpret this into your own surroundings.


back to the contradictions:

In many of the passages you quoted/linked I fail to see the obvious contradiction. After all peace and war have not been commonly agreed to be contradictory up to nowadays. War - in an ancient viewpoint that some carry up unto today - is a tool to achieve peace. If you wanted peace (=not be bothered by invading tribes on a raid) back then you had to go to war with them and defeat them so they won't be able to come back and raid your home.
I know and love the saying: "Fighting for peace is like f***ing for virginity" but most people believed and many still do (cf. Iraq war) that peace can be achieved through war. The Romans even referred to a newly captured territory as "pacified".

[Faceman]

small nitpicks on your post Yorick and Timber

Timber: the main issue was not about the earth being flat (which I am not sure if the church denied that) but about the earth as god's creation being the center of the universe. Scholars just couldn't bear the image of the earth moving around the sun making it "less" than the sun. You could argue that the earth IS in fact the center of the universe not physically speaking but spiritally as it may be the only place with intelligent life.

Yorick: I take it that you meant 10^21 and 10^25?
Mental soundness being connected with corporal health is correct but there have been a lot of misconceptions about the DIRECT connection between the two.
The best example is the misinterpretation of Latin "mens sana in corpore sano" which was taken out of context and in the full verse actually reads "may there be a sound mind in every healthy body" rather than "in a healthy body there's always a sound mind".