Real Western Sword Combat

[Thoran]

That Swordmace is aaahh... amazing an umm... work of... well, it's kindof, aaahhh hmmmm. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'd tend to perfer something more along these lines:

http://www.angelsword.com/Avatar%20A..._gallery2.html

specifically some of the simple guard designs of this guy are really clean, the blades are light wootz, and based on pricing and apparent quality I'd at least HOPE they'd be fairly balanced (they look to have substantial pommels, guards and grips), they look like as close to functional as I've seen on the net... although you'd have to replace the fancy wood grips with something that wouldn't get slippery when covered with blood and sweat if you were really going to go back in time with one [img]smile.gif[/img] .

[ 07-16-2003, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

[Azimaith]

Originally posted by Thoran: That Swordmace is aaahh... amazing an umm... work of... well, it's kindof, aaahhh hmmmm. [img]smile.gif[/img] I'd tend to perfer something more along these lines: http://www.angelsword.com/Avatar%20A..._gallery2.html specifically some of the simple guard designs of this guy are really clean, the blades are light wootz, and based on pricing and apparent quality I'd at least HOPE they'd be fairly balanced (they look to have substantial pommels, guards and grips), they look like as close to functional as I've seen on the net... although you'd have to replace the fancy wood grips with something that wouldn't get slippery when covered with blood and sweat if you were really going to go back in time with one [img]smile.gif[/img] .

well at least they don't claim that king arthur used a dragon hitled, stainless steel katana. Want to see some really beautiful functionals heres the link, I got a cresset from these guys, beautiful work, and as for the grip, really anything used for the grip will get slippery with covered with blood or sweat, i've yet to seen the terry bathrobe grip or the shag carpet grip hehe. Oh yeah heres the link. http://store.swordforum.com/angustrim/
Now as for the blades at angel, the longsword seems to be way to heavy for its size, a longsword shouldn't get heavier than 2 pounds five ounces, anything heavier than that and still a longsword is either poorly made or way to gaudy, guess it must be the granite grip. Also when your looking for guards its usually best to stay away from softer metals like copper. Looks to me like angel armouries sells wallhangers and other decorative stuff more than functional blades, not to say of course that they're useless, just I'd rather have my cresset in a battle than a 3 pound avaatar longsword. The bright knight swords aren't bad though i avoid those useless ultra curved crossguards and tend to stick with the steel crucibus instead. Nice swords but way overpriced in my opinion and for my needs of course as well. (I ain't test cutting with a 6,000 dollar sword heh.)

[Azimaith]

Originally posted by Thoran: That Swordmace is aaahh... amazing an umm... work of... well, it's kindof, aaahhh hmmmm. [img]smile.gif[/img] I'd tend to perfer something more along these lines: http://www.angelsword.com/Avatar%20A..._gallery2.html specifically some of the simple guard designs of this guy are really clean, the blades are light wootz, and based on pricing and apparent quality I'd at least HOPE they'd be fairly balanced (they look to have substantial pommels, guards and grips), they look like as close to functional as I've seen on the net... although you'd have to replace the fancy wood grips with something that wouldn't get slippery when covered with blood and sweat if you were really going to go back in time with one [img]smile.gif[/img] .

well at least they don't claim that king arthur used a dragon hitled, stainless steel katana. Want to see some really beautiful functionals heres the link, I got a cresset from these guys, beautiful work, and as for the grip, really anything used for the grip will get slippery with covered with blood or sweat, i've yet to seen the terry bathrobe grip or the shag carpet grip hehe. Oh yeah heres the link. http://store.swordforum.com/angustrim/
Now as for the blades at angel, the longsword seems to be way to heavy for its size, a longsword shouldn't get heavier than 2 pounds five ounces, anything heavier than that and still a longsword is either poorly made or way to gaudy, guess it must be the granite grip. Also when your looking for guards its usually best to stay away from softer metals like copper. Looks to me like angel armouries sells wallhangers and other decorative stuff more than functional blades, not to say of course that they're useless, just I'd rather have my cresset in a battle than a 3 pound avaatar longsword. The bright knight swords aren't bad though i avoid those useless ultra curved crossguards and tend to stick with the steel crucibus instead. Nice swords but way overpriced in my opinion and for my needs of course as well. (I ain't test cutting with a 6,000 dollar sword heh.)

[Thoran]

2lb 6 oz. seems a tad light to me for a period accurate piece... to my knowledge midieval swords typically weighed on average 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 pounds (or more), I think those blades from the Museum store look great, and probably the light weight is due to taking advantage of modern metals and heat treating techniques (which far surpass even the mytical Damascus when it comes right down to it). Certainly if I spent 5 g's on a blade I wouldn't be wacking things with it [img]smile.gif[/img] , but I think the wootz blades look to have at least the potential to realistically represent the type of blades available during that era, made with period material and possibly techniques (further exploration of their techniquest would be required to figure that out). I would also add that it appears that period weapons, being in the realm of the aristocracy, tended to be more ornate than the good functional blades produced today... the craftsmanship combined with a functional blade is why I was impressed by the angelsword site (although I'd never spend that kind of cash on a blade purchased site unseen over the net). Seems these days you either get a garbage blade gaudily decorated or a functional blade that's too plain to actually look like a true period blade (and made using steels that are far beyond the capabilities of the day).

As far as the handle material... I think a wire wound or leather wound grip will typically perform much better than a smooth grip, simply because when friction drops from sweat (or blood in the olden days), you still have a mechanical bind between grip and glove leather provided by the voids in the wrap. I agree with you that the angelsword products are obviously intended to be wall hangers... but if I had the cash I'd love to test one out and see what it could do properly configured.

[Azimaith]

Originally posted by Thoran: 2lb 6 oz. seems a tad light to me for a period accurate piece... to my knowledge midieval swords typically weighed on average 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 pounds (or more), I think those blades from the Museum store look great, and probably the light weight is due to taking advantage of modern metals and heat treating techniques (which far surpass even the mytical Damascus when it comes right down to it). Certainly if I spent 5 g's on a blade I wouldn't be wacking things with it [img]smile.gif[/img] , but I think the wootz blades look to have at least the potential to realistically represent the type of blades available during that era, made with period material and possibly techniques (further exploration of their techniquest would be required to figure that out). I would also add that it appears that period weapons, being in the realm of the aristocracy, tended to be more ornate than the good functional blades produced today... the craftsmanship combined with a functional blade is why I was impressed by the angelsword site (although I'd never spend that kind of cash on a blade purchased site unseen over the net). Seems these days you either get a garbage blade gaudily decorated or a functional blade that's too plain to actually look like a true period blade (and made using steels that are far beyond the capabilities of the day). As far as the handle material... I think a wire wound or leather wound grip will typically perform much better than a smooth grip, simply because when friction drops from sweat (or blood in the olden days), you still have a mechanical bind between grip and glove leather provided by the voids in the wrap. I agree with you that the angelsword products are obviously intended to be wall hangers... but if I had the cash I'd love to test one out and see what it could do properly configured.

Nope its true, longswords weighed a little more than 2.5 and bastard sword weighed 2.5 or less, in fact we don't have what you call modern metals. Steel today is like steel 3 centuries ago, and when its the swords are forged in the old way, which the museum store does, it comes out right, remeber these blades are fullered like older blades too, that makes them lighter. Truth is 2.5 pounds feels like a helluva alot when you practice with it, many people don't realize how heavy 2 pounds is, with proper balance in the sword construction it becomes workable but as I said before, historically accurate AS WELL as antiques from those periods weighed around 2.5 pounds. You really can't say that the hundreds of graves excavated from the battle of visby were all coincedently light. The stone handle is weighing that sword down more than it needs to be. Anyhow this is a roundabout way of saying that 2.5 is accurate, 3 pounds is on the heft size for a normal longsword. As I said before these blades fromt he museum store are forged in the historical way. I dunno if you read exactly what damscus was from my above post, its really nothing magical, just good quality and nice looking.

[Thoran]

I know Damascus is just another way of processing iron into steel... and as I said, todays steels are well beyond the capabilities of Damascus anyway. Maybe I didn't look into the museum store data enough but it seemed they were using some off the shelf steels in their blades... and until the advent of the Bessemer process such purity was unattainable (and I seem to recall that's why so much folding was needed... to force out the impurities), the lifespan of the long sword was well before the advent of Bessemer. I'm sure the good quality functional blades made today using off the shelf steels are superior in every way to the most radical period blades (except perhaps in geometry unless the new blade is patterened exactly after a period blade).

It appears there may be some disagreement regarding weight, I've seen a couple references to the L.S. historic weight being in the 3# range... but perhaps it's not so cut and dried. Certainly the later long sword designs would have been lighter given their taper, perhaps that's part of the discrepancy.

As far as swinging even a 2 1/2 pound blade... I can only imagine what a couple hours of that would be like, because I could never do it. Of course the guys back then were swinging blades from childhood, and I imagine someone will get used to any reasonably weighted and balanced blade (although it may take a while).

FWIW... Here's another site, Del Tin... these guys have some nice looking stuff, and their stuff appears to hover in the 2.5-3 lb range.

http://www.deltin.it/swords2.htm

Here's another link with some very nice looking swords... reasonably priced too for the most part.
http://www.ancientedge.com/subcategory_8.html

makes me want to get out my checkbook. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 07-17-2003, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

[Azimaith]

Originally posted by Thoran: I know Damascus is just another way of processing iron into steel... and as I said, todays steels are well beyond the capabilities of Damascus anyway. Maybe I didn't look into the museum store data enough but it seemed they were using some off the shelf steels in their blades... and until the advent of the Bessemer process such purity was unattainable (and I seem to recall that's why so much folding was needed... to force out the impurities), the lifespan of the long sword was well before the advent of Bessemer. I'm sure the good quality functional blades made today using off the shelf steels are superior in every way to the most radical period blades (except perhaps in geometry unless the new blade is patterened exactly after a period blade). It appears there may be some disagreement regarding weight, I've seen a couple references to the L.S. historic weight being in the 3# range... but perhaps it's not so cut and dried. Certainly the later long sword designs would have been lighter given their taper, perhaps that's part of the discrepancy. As far as swinging even a 2 1/2 pound blade... I can only imagine what a couple hours of that would be like, because I could never do it. Of course the guys back then were swinging blades from childhood, and I imagine someone will get used to any reasonably weighted and balanced blade (although it may take a while). FWIW... Here's another site, Del Tin... these guys have some nice looking stuff, and their stuff appears to hover in the 2.5-3 lb range. http://www.deltin.it/swords2.htm Here's another link with some very nice looking swords... reasonably priced too for the most part. http://www.ancientedge.com/subcategory_8.html makes me want to get out my checkbook. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Heh I know what ya mean by the checkbook. Anyhow its not really shelf steel its simply the kind of steel, but still, with sword design many modern methods can do great with the steel itself but horrible on the design, for many people it can't just work, it has to "look cool" today people want SUV swords for one person. Its kind of sad isn't it, sword design has decayed while we advanced in most other things, I suppose its just wasn't paid any attention. Anyhow as I said before, the normal weight of a historical longsword was around 2.5 lbs, its a very solid number as well because many antiques have been recovered from dig sites like the aforementioned battle of visby and they weigh in at this number. You might want to check out the oakshott institute, its got good info. Now for Del tins, all in all they make decent blades, their hilts however are often times pretty bad, some come in rattling which is terrible, they also are known to break a bit to easily to ensure really solid craftmanship. I'e never tried ancient edge but their swords are definately beautiful, if they really are as they claim, then I might just get one of those.