Party Composition

[GenXCub]

I've been playing on and off since Xmas, and I'm still having issues of party composition.. I haven't done anything past Trynton... it's sort of my benchmark... I want to find a really great party that's survivable past that... I'm just basically throwing out ideas on what I've done, I'd appreciate a critique, but keep in mind I want to do something that's fun, not just a cookie-cutter party. I'm fairly new to this type of r/t game... I had Wiz 6 and 7, but didn't really like 7. I've never played Baldur's Gate, I'm more of a Diablo 2 fan where there are no parties.

My first party was Samurai, Lord, Monk, Gadgeteer, Psionic, Mage. I thought it was good overall, but I felt left out by not having a bard.

So I created Samurai, Fighter, Ranger, Gadgeteer, Bard, Bishop. I love the Ranger, I now have him in all my parties, but I was pretty weak as far as firepower went.

Then I tried Samurai, Valkyrie, Ranger, Gadgeteer, Bard, Alchemist... only problem, no one to do Identify item until quite a ways into the game...

Here's the question that's really burning in my head. Do I really need a Samurai? I almost never get the lightning Attacks and the only way to get him to berserk is to give him the sword you find in the Monastery to auto-berserk... and it's no better than a No-Dachi.
As far as Monks and Ninja's, I've yet to see them do any appreciable damage in hand to hand fighting, if I want ranged criticals, I do fine with the Ranger. Lords seem like a waste to me at this point, even though they rocked in Bane of the Cosmic Forge.

Give me an example of your parties, and why you chose the make-up you did... also, I've been thinking, Instead of taking up 2 places with Gadgeteer and Bard, do a Half/Half, but which to start with... start with bard to get the poet's lute, but lose the omnigun, or start with Gadgeteer and not get the poet's lute, or should I scrap that idea.

Thanks
GenXCub

[Naugrim]

My main party was almost identical to your second one, only I had a monk instead of a gadgeteer, and a second fighter instead of the samurai. The only major trouble I've had with fights were non-random monsters (ie there weren't randomly generated based on my level) and I was several levels under them. The 2 fighters really whip up pretty much everything, and my ranger and monk have started insta-killing noticably better (though still not all that often). Could proabably replace the monk or the ranger with pretty much any other class w/o causing problems.. another caster would be useful, actually.

As far as monks and samurais go, though, here's some more input.. I started another party with the intent of cheating on them just to see how they perform at higher levels and whatnot. My samurai is still fairly lame with 100 dex, speed, and senses and a mid-upper strength. Played the party for a while now and no lightning strikes or anything else notable. My fighter, with a fang and hunter's bow (both have + to kill) insta-kills people left and right (if his normal damage doesn't do it), but the sam isn't nearly as effective. His equipment is cooler sounding, though [img]smile.gif[/img]

The monk is a little odd.. maxed str, spd, and dex, and high senses. Her damage is all over the place.. most of the time it's pretty lame (though her martial arts and crit skills are only around 50 or so right now), however at times she'll attack 3x for like 20 a hit. I'm not sure why, though. So I can see her coming through pretty well eventually..

And you have to consider that both classes can cast spells. It's another thing to spend time working on, so I often just don't with them (as I do fine w/o the extra spells), but they would likely be a lot more useful if I didn't ignore this facet of them..

[Jem]

quote:

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Originally posted by GenXCub:
Give me an example of your parties, and why you chose the make-up you did... also, I've been thinking, Instead of taking up 2 places with Gadgeteer and Bard, do a Half/Half, but which to start with... start with bard to get the poet's lute, but lose the omnigun, or start with Gadgeteer and not get the poet's lute, or should I scrap that idea.

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Well, my party was 2 bishops, bard, gadgeteer, valkyrie and ranger. My reasoning on it was this -- my two bishops each had two schools of magic to specialize in and complemented each other well in combat whether casting offensively or buffing. My bard and gadgeteer brought in "spells" at much lower levels than my bishops would get them and that only cost stamina, which is recovered immediately after battle. My ranger was my searcher and I never create a party without one. He's also my primary range fighter, though my bard and valk can back him up nicely. My valk was my front-liner (along with the two RPCs I had) and her polearm gave her extended weapon capability even while it robbed her of a shield. I prefer valks to lords because the dual-wielding to me is not worth it and cheat death can be very beneficial if you do something stupid like step off of a tree

And the problem with doing a bard changing to a gadgeteer or vice versa is that in both cases there are items/instruments that are only usable once you get to a certain level (11-14 for gadgeteers, 11-18 for bards) that can really help you out and if you use one character to do both it's going to take a LONG time to get to a level of being able to use everything. There's also the fact that they each have access to so many items that with just one of those two classes you have to make hard choices as to which items to put in their personal inventory and you want exacerbate the problem by choosing out of something like 32 items to fit 8 slots instead of 16 to fill 8.

One final note: you automatically get an omnigun whenever you turn a character into a gadgeteer no matter what he started out as or what level he is - I guess they cobble something together from scratch - so if you decide to do this anyway, I'd start as a bard to get the poet's lute because you'll still get the omnigun later.

[slowtrain]

I had a Samurai in every party I made for a long time. I love the character, but after a while I gave him up because he just isn't a great character for the way I play.

Samurai is really only a front line melee fighter, but they lack the hit points to really stand on the front lines and tank. You can give them a shield, but then you lose their sword dual-wield which is the whole point of using a samurai in the first place. A fighter can do almost anything a Samurai can do, and fighters do a lot of things (like tank) MUCH better. Granted fighters are somewhat boring to develop, but, for me, having incredibly difficult combats and constantly reloading is even more boring.

So now I run 2 fighters, one with max vitality and strength with sword/mace and shield, and one with dex/speed/strength and sword/dagger, dual wield, and polearms. For most combats, they both stand on the front line and split incoming damage between the two of them. But for really difficult melee encounters, I pull the dual-wield fighter off to the flank and have him engage with polearms while leaving my super-heavy-duty-shield-bearing-max-hit-point monster on the frontline to soak up all the damage. That way my priest and bishop can focus all their efforts on keeping only one party member alive rather than two.

I just got tired of having to spend some much effort trying to keep my Samurai alive on the front line. I am toying with the idea of switching one fighter to a samurai at high-level so they can get crits. But haven't decided for sure.

Anyway, my party, which covers many bases and is also very tough:

Dwarf Fighter--Mace/Sword/Shield, Dwarf DR+iron skin, max vit/str
Human Fighter--Sword/Dagger/Dual-Wield/Polearms, Str/Dex/Speed
Human Ninja--Dual/Throwing/Crits, Spd/Dex/Sen, Alc
Human Ranger--Strength/Senses, Bow/Ranged/Scouting, Eagle Eye, Alc
Rawulf Priest--Divinity, Divine Magic,
Elf Bishop--Divinity, Wizardry, Psionics

Two melee fighters, one very tough with extreme HPs and DR, two ranged attackers with crits, auto-penetrate, Eagle Eye, auto search, massive healing/buff ability, double-barrel turn undead, can use almost all weapons, armor, and items, lots of hit points. Obviously, the things I lose are Bard items and gadgets, but you gotta give up something, right? [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: slowtrain ]

[DraconisRex]

D" I really need a Samurai?"

1. No. However, there is more to the Samurai than Lightning Attacks. I feel the critical strike is a much more important option. As my Ironman party is back to Tryton (post Marten's bluff), I've found that my two monks & one Ninja are dealing out lots of criticals. In my non-Ironman experience, the Samurai plays the same way.

Secondly, why the dual-weilding with the Samurai? If you want to dual-weild, go Lord or Ninja. They're both far better at it. Go No-Dachi or one of the better, usable for your class, swords later in the game. Use a shield when weapon choice allows it.

As for tanking, put more points into strength and vitality than you've probably been doing... When you factor in the Critical Kill factor, you'll find your Samurai will do better than your berserk fighter at giving and taking damage. That berserk option AC penalty just doesn't cut it for me.

2. As far as your Monk & Ninja not getting criticals or doing poor damage, you're not developing the correct attributes. Strength is essential for damage. If you're a 65lb weakling, don't expect your feather-weight hits to do any serious damage. I think a lot of people run into this problem with their monks. Lack of strength causing poor damage.

3. If you're going to dual a Gadgeteer/Bard combo, go Gadgeteer first. The Lute is easier to get than the Omnigun.

4. Lords are the best dual-weilders and wear heavier armor than your Samurai, at the expense of no criticals. However, there are some cool weapons with 10% (Stiletto) or better Insta-Kill percentages which makes up for that.

5. My current party is set-up for Ironman. This means I have developed a more conservative, survivable in worst-case scenario party.

a. Valykrie. Flanker fighter. Uses best available polearm.
Develops: Strength, Vitality, Dexterity & Speed.

b. Monk. Front-row or Flanker fighter. Low equiping cost.
Once martial arts are maxed, it's to the side (flanker) with
a pole arm.

c. Ninja. Front-row fighter. Dual-weild Nunchakas. Equip with
Poison/Hex Darts & Shurkin. Fall-back to bow when out of
both.

d. Bard/Ranger dual class. Best available sword. Best available
bow/xbow. Primary emphasis is in music.

e. Priest-to-Bishop. Five levels as Priest. Then to Bishop.
works hard on defensive/support magic.

f. Mage/Alchemsit dual class going to permenent Bishop status
around level 12/13. Works hard on Alchemy & Mage attack
spells. Some healing & support, too.

[Fantasm]

To the original poster, your second party is EXACTLY like MY 2nd party. =) It's the one I'm currently playing now, and it's the one I'm going all the way through with.

Like you, I wanted to maximize my "fun" factor, and that meant having both a bard and a gadgeteer, so I could actually use all this nifty stuff I was finding. I love my ranger too, and after reading posts on here about developing powerful bishops by not using spellpicks early on, I chose to go that route and have just one pure caster (she's level 14 now and simply rocks . Having a Bishop, a Bard, and a Gadgeteer is great; I really think that a bard and a gadgeteer suppelements my Bishop's magic VERY nicely. Even at 14-15th level, they're still providing needed magic help with some of the stuff they find (I swear the Siren's Wail must be permanently glued to my bard's lips .

As for your Samurai, refer to the post I made earlier today in response to somebody complaining about their Samurai (the one that talks about his party's exploits up 'til now). Basically, the ideal use of a Samurai IMO, at least in Wiz8, is to equip them with Bloodlust and an enchanted Wakizashi, and use their magic for all ranged attacks. Instead of building up a bow skill, build up their magic by ALWAYS casting a spell if you're not in melee range. By going this route, I have developed a very powerful character who can cast Freeze All and then walk up and chop away for either 4 or 6 attacks with each weapon (2 attacks each with either 2 or 3 swings per attack), with Bloodlust doing double damage. With only one pure caster, it's almost like having a bad-ass mage in the party to get off extra attack spells while the monsters are still far away...

Ironically enough, I consider the weakest link in my party to be my fighter. Without any intention of doing so, I have what is essentially a range-heavy party; I ALWAYS stand still and cast magic and fire bows/omnigun in the first round or two, and by the time I get close to the enemies or they finally make their way to me, the opportunity for melee attacks is quite small; usually a couple swings here and there will finish them off. And since my fighter is a lizardman, his speed and senses sucked at first, meaning he usually went last, and only got the scraps that my samurai and ranger (and later RFS-81) had left over (which usually wasn't much . I felt good if he got 2 swings in during combat.

At level 16, his sword skill is only 78 and his close combat is 76 (and that's with his class bonus . On the plus side, he likes his triple-crossbow quite nicely, and kicks major booty with it (his bow skill is in the 60s). I figure him advancing slowly isn't so bad, since the knock on fighters is that they usually get boring at higher levels. I guess I'm keeping things interesting by growing him at a snail's pace. =)

If I had to do it over again, I would make a valkyrie instead of a fighter, and leave everything else the same. I'm just now entering the water to go to Bayjin, and I find myself very reluctant to give up Vi. That extra heal or paralyze spell came in handy a few times, and a good polearm can do almost as much damage as a fighter's berserk attack.

[MaskedFrog]

You do not need any class. It is all a matter of preference and playing style. I tend to prefer the chance of an outright kill to just doing massive damage.

The Samurai is an amazingly effective class if developed properly. In my game I completely ignored magic and concentrated on Dual Wielding Swords and critical hits. He is now level 20 with 100 Str and Spd fairly high vitality and Dex and poor Senses (I am working on it). Wielding Fang (10% kill chance) and enchanted wakizashi he has the most kills in the party by a good margin. I guess it justs meets my play style.

Most combats start with either casting protection spells round 1 if the enemy breathes or casts or charging to melee range. My spell casters are used to soften up the enemy so my front line fighters can finish them off. My party consists of the following:

Vi - RPC Valk (Just liked her from when we met and have kept her except for areas she will not enter.)

RFS-81 Monk (I love his sayings.)

Samurai - I have always had or developed a samurai in Wizardry games.

Ninja - Same as samurai although I am not as impressed with the ninja in Wizardry 8. I would probably take a monk instead.

Ranger - Ranged Criticals, Auto Scout, Alchemy spells nuff said.

Bishop - I needed a spell caster to cover offensive and defensive spells. I really like the flexibility of this class.

Gadgeteer - Had to try it. Not very useful at lower levels but now at level 22 I cannot do without him.

Psionic - Liked his spell selection and the immunity to mental conditions. In the early game Insanity rules. He still has good later game spells although at the next level I am switching over to Bishop to expand his spell selection.

In the end you just have to select a party that works with your playing strategy. I originally played to Trynton with almost exactly the same party as above but with a Valk instead of a Samurai. Even though the Valk was doing well, I missed my Samurai so I restarted. I have not looked back since.

[GenXCub]

It's funny, I sound like such a noob, In Diablo2, I can tell you every intricacy of the game as to what gets calculated how... and now I'm just not finding things...

Here's the update...

I created Samurai, Fighter, Ranger, Gadgeteer, Bishop, Alchemist (turned to Bishop at level 4).

I've made it to Arnika, and things seem just okay... my new problem. Getting magic skill points. it seems like everything I cast fizzles or backfires. The only decent stat I have is Fire magic, and it's still fairly pathetic. I didn't have this problem with a Mage, but Bishops are higher maintenance. I try to cast higher power spells when I can, and it takes forever to earn a point. It seems like only the Identify Item is doing me any good, but that's Mental and psionics it's increasing.
(edit: my 9 points I put into Wizardry, Psionics, Divinity, since I was hoping to earn the spell skills by casting... should I start over with a different distribution?)

I try doing the Light/Enchanted Blade thing, and it occasionally does something, but that takes care of fire/divine, what about the rest?

Also, I was glad to read somewhere about the gadgeteer combining 2 light crossbows for a double crossbow... my ranger is a lot more effective now. Anyone know of any other weapon combos like that? I know the gadgets, but only the crossbow things for weapons... thanks

[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: GenXCub ]

[CChadwick]

There's a couple of exploits you can use to substantially boost your earth and mental realms as well as your divinity, psionics and either wizardry or alchemy. They're definitely effective, although somewhat tedious and not a lot of fun. If you're interested, you can easily find them on the board here.

The only other options is just to use spells every chance you get. Heal people even if you're planning on camping, cast your buffer spells at all opportunities and keep them running constantly. Vary your spell use during a combat so that you're trying lots of things. It will go up, but in the beginning, they definitely do struggle.

-- C