Are airlines discriminateing against "heavy" people?

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

I got this article here:http://www.polkonline.com/stories/0...dly-skies.shtml

The skinny on airlines mistreatment of the obese -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FILE--Arlene Edelman of Sunrise holds a picture of her son Michael on Sept. 13, 2000, who died at the age of 28 in 1992 due to complications of obesity. Edelman, an activist on the issue of size discrimination, runs Michael's Weigh of HOPE, a weekly support group for obese people. The Associated Press -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By SUSANNAH BRYAN South Florida Sun-Sentinel FORT LAUDERDALE -- Arlene Edelman had a ticket to ride. But Edelman, who weighed 800 pounds at the time, was told she'd need two. She argued with the skycap at La Guardia Airport in New York. "We went back and forth," said Edelman, who now weighs 300 pounds and lives in Sunrise. "He said I couldn't fly. I told him I was going to fly no matter what." Edelman, who lived in New York at the time, had planned a Mother's Day trip to Florida to surprise her mom. Delta charged her for 2 1/2 seats each way. "It's crazy," Edelman said. "Someone's going to sit in half a seat?" When Edelman asked the skycap for a wheelchair, he brought out a luggage cart. "I told him, 'I'm not luggage, I'm a human being.' When I got back from my trip, I gave Delta a piece of my mind." Several calls later to the airline, Edelman received a refund, but no apology. That was 10 years ago. But the policy of requiring obese passengers to buy multiple seats likely will not disappear anytime soon. The policy recently passed muster in a state court in California. The case was one of a handful that have been filed in the past decade, but were dismissed before making it to trial. Cynthia Luther, who weighs more than 300 pounds, claimed discrimination and harassment after being asked to buy a second seat on a Southwest Airlines flight from Reno, Nev., to Burbank, Calif., last May. A California state judge threw out the case last month. Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Marilyn Hoffman agreed with lawyers for Southwest that the airline's policy on overweight passengers is neither illegal nor discriminatory. Luther's attorney, Robert Scuderi, is appealing. "Our position was that Miss Luther didn't take up two seats," Scuderi said. "They pulled her out of line and said she couldn't fly on the plane unless she bought two seats. That's where the emotional distress comes in. But she sat in one seat perfectly well." "It's just a pity," Edelman said of the decision. "We're like outcasts." Edelman, an activist on the issue of size discrimination, runs Michael's Weigh of HOPE, a weekly support group for obese people. The outcome of the case was no shock to Sandie Sabo, a spokeswoman for the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance. NAAFA, based in Sacramento, Calif., has about 10,000 members working to end size discrimination. The problem, Sabo said, is that there are no laws banning discrimination against obese people. "We have to look at changing laws," Sabo said. "These one-on-one cases are going nowhere. The airlines can do whatever they want to do. Height and weight need to be added to the protected status category so they can't discriminate against us based on size. People get discriminated against based on size frequently: housing, adoption, health care." Meanwhile, the issue of the obese flier is not likely to go away. For one thing, many Americans are getting larger, while airline seats are not. About 52 percent of Americans are overweight, up from 33 percent a decade ago, and one of four Americans is obese, or more than 30 percent above ideal body weight, according to recent government reports. "It's no longer the friendly skies," said Dallas business flier Hunter Elam, who weighs about 300 pounds. He flew recently to Fort Lauderdale on business. "In the '50s, look what happened when someone of a certain ethnicity had to move to the back of the bus. That's the same thing here, treating someone different because of their size." The average seat in economy class is about 17.5 inches wide -- rather skimpy for many losing the battle of the bulge. The fact that most airlines are easily filling flights only adds to the problem. It's one of supply and demand: Years ago airlines would block out the seat next to a large passenger and charge only for one seat, said Ray Rosario of Miami, a former reservation agent for Pan Am. But today, airlines are more likely to charge for a second seat. Some may think the airlines are discriminating, but airlines are within their rights, said Bill Mosely, spokesman for the U.S. Department of Transportation. Airlines are not restricted by the Americans with Disabilities Act, which requires that disabled people have access to public buildings such as courthouses and movie theaters. Airlines are instead regulated by the Air Carrier Access Act of 1986, which does not require them to make special provisions for obese passengers. Changing the law, Mosely said, would take an act of Congress. So far, no one is lobbying. Obesity support groups just don't have the financial or political clout, said NAAFA's Sabo. While some are sympathetic to the plight of the large flier, others take the side of the airlines. Look at how airlines treat oversized baggage, says Stuart Klaskin of Klaskin, Kushner & Co., an aviation consulting firm in Coral Gables. "If you show up for a flight and have more than the normal number of bags, they charge you extra. Or if any of those bags are outsized, you get charged." Richard Kinkead of Lantana, who is 6-foot, 3-inches and weighs 315 pounds, objects to the comparison. "You can adjust how much you pack," he said. "You can't ask a passenger to drop 100 pounds just to take a flight." On the flip side, some passengers have complaints about large seatmates. Robert Weisberg of Coconut Creek, who flies once a month for his sports memorabilia business, recently found himself next to a large passenger on a crowded flight from New Jersey to Fort Lauderdale. "Some of these people invade your airspace," Weisberg said. "We were crushed. We couldn't move." Steve Kupchun of Dania Beach also has felt the squeeze. "I've sat next to a big person who has been spilling over into my seat, and I'm in just half a seat. But when you're on an airplane, it's not their fault. The seats are so small." Airlines are notorious for not being nice to obese fliers, said Bettye Travis, a spokeswoman for NAAFA. "I've had ticket agents ask me if I want to buy a second seat. It's embarrassing. It's another situation where fat people are treated blatantly unfairly. We don't fit in the seats. The lavatories are almost impossible. The week before I fly it's not fear of flying, it's fear of fitting that gets to me." The industry admits that seat pitch, or the distance from your seat to the seat in front of you, has decreased in the past 15 years. Some carriers have taken note of the crunch and are spending millions to make their fleets roomier. Seats won't get wider, but legroom will increase. American Airlines announced last February that it was adding 3 inches of legroom to most of the coach seats in its fleet. In August 1999, United moved to establish a roomier area in the front rows of coach. And last January, British Airways introduced a new class of seat, World Traveler Plus, that provides more space than the typical coach seat but costs less than first-class. Still, when it comes to seat space, American's policy is no different from any other airline. "If you need two seats, you buy two seats," said spokeswoman Martha Pantin. Although no U.S. agency is investigating the plight of obese passengers, Canada is looking into whether they should be given disability status. The Canadian Transportation Agency began its inquiry after a woman complained that Air Canada discriminated against her by charging her for two seats. After months of research, the agency's inquiry officer recommended obesity be recognized as a disability. The airlines objected. "Just because you're overweight doesn't mean you're entitled to more (space) than the average passenger," said Clifford Mackay, president of the Air Transport Association of Canada, an airline trade group. "If you're overweight and you want a bigger seat, fly business class." In June, Tony Mazzamuto of Santa Ana, Calif., accused Southwest Airlines of discriminating against him because of his weight. Mazzamuto, who weighs 400 pounds, complained that the airline forced him to buy two seats. Southwest Airlines forbids staff from discussing closed or pending litigation, said spokeswoman Christine Turneabe-Connelly. But Southwest ticket agents and other "front-line" staff are trained to handle such situations with sensitivity, she said. "We don't weigh every person that comes on board -- or piece of luggage," Turneabe-Connelly said. "It's not our intent to hurt the feelings of the customer," she said. "If it's obvious the person will need two seats, the ticket agent will discreetly inform them that they'll have to purchase the additional seat." If an obese passenger refuses to pay for a second seat, the passenger might be asked to get off the plane, she said. Meanwhile, most people, no matter how humiliated, are loath to take on an airline, even in court, Sabo said. "They are too humiliated and want it to all go away," Sabo said. "They go home and cry. Or they don't fly".

To me it seems pretty black and white. If airline seats are only 17 inches wide and you are twice that wide, then you should have to pay for 2 seats. It just seems like common sense to me. A person who is 800 pounds is just not going to fit in a seat that size. I weigh 230 pounds and I dont have a problem fitting into an airline seat or into air plane bathrooms. People in this article have problems with both and feel like it is the air lines fault for it. I guess no one told them that there is only so much room on an air plane. What do you think? Should the airlines make the planes bigger or should these people just face the reality of it and either buy 2 seats or fly first class?

[ 02-07-2003, 11:32 PM: Message edited by: The Hunter of Jahanna ]

[Memnoch]

IF people can discuss this in a reasonable and civil manner, without stooping to fat jokes, insults or weight-loss advice, I'll allow it to remain - but I've seen far too many threads of this nature which have degenerated into slanging matches, with hurt feelings all round.

I very rarely weigh into the beginning of a thread with a warning, but I feel it necessary in this case. The slightest sign of any flames, insults or sarcastic dietary advice and it will be locked, full stop.

So behave, please - all of you. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Cloudbringer]

As a matter of fact this very subject came up a few months ago and it degenerated into fat jokes and insulting posts. Several members were outraged at the whole thing and as I recall, so was I.

So trust us, as Memnoch said, it won't be here long if it doesn't stay a mature discussion rather than a childish flamethrowing event.

[Memnoch]

OK, warnings over, my 2c. If it's the case of the person being physically unable to fit into an economy class seat, I think it would be a nice gesture from the airlines to allow them to be upgraded to business class if a business class seat was available - after all the seat is going to be empty anyway. They may as well sell that economy class seat to someone else. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Edit: In case some of you guys don't know, most airlines will upgrade you to business class if a) you ask nicely; and b) ask at the gate, when they already know that their business class is not fully booked. It also helps if you're a member of that airline's Frequent Flyer program, but it's not essential. The worst they can say is no.

[ 02-08-2003, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

[Sir Goulum]

Well, I suppose if they absolutely *can't* fit in 1 seat, then they should pay a bit extra at least, because the airlines could have sold that seat to another person...

[Larry_OHF]

With the situation as it is in these days with airlines going bankrupt and less people flying these days...(and by the way, I hear that the plane in Charlotte went down due to an overweight load)...I doubt the airlines that still exist will be able to anytime soon accomodate people larger than can fit in the aleady created seating. They doubtedly have enough funds to buy into redesigning right now. But also, if one person is to take up two seats due to a weight problem...My opinion is that he should only pay for one seat. Because two seats now become his one. And therefore, he is only occupying one seat. I think that would be fair. I mean...how much money could airlines lose? How many people are large enough to take up two seats and fly frequently? Not enough to make or break the airline.

[lethoso]

well, i can remember getting stuck on a train in a seat next to an overwieght person, let's just say that i'd prefer standing....

they should have to pay for extra seats, simply to spare other passengers the potential discomfort if they are stuck next to them....

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

For the mods
I didnt post this to put down heavy people. It seemed to me like a legit thread.If people are going to get hurt feeling over it then by all means delete it. This isnt an attack by me.I am not trying to make light of it, just looking for opposing view points because I am not always the most empathic person.

[Davros]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: My opinion is that he should only pay for one seat. Because two seats now become his one. And therefore, he is only occupying one seat. I think that would be fair. I mean...how much money could airlines lose? How many people are large enough to take up two seats and fly frequently? Not enough to make or break the airline.

I am in agreement with Larry on this - but it really isn;t that simple, and it does create a couple of problems that would need to be ruled upon.
1) If a person needs two seats, then that needs to be declared and proven at the time of ticket purchase. Airlines deliberately oversell flights, and should not have to compensate additional people if they are surprised "on the day of the flight".
2) How do you judge that the person needs two seats to fit, rather than needs two seats to be comfortable. Most of the time I travel in economy - and while I fit in my seat, it can be pretty uncomfortable on long hauls. I always give a little cheer when the seat next door is empty, and I can lift the armrest and stretch out. There needs to be some means of deciding who gets the extra space. Do you then start weighing the passengers? - a 325 lb guy gets an extra seat and 299 lb guy doesn't? Hmmm - so now is the 299 lb guy being discriminated against by not getting the extra room?

Perhaps the best solution that I see is to set aside or create some business class size seats (one row would be 4 on a domestic flight, say 10 on an international flight) WITHOUT the extras that they pay for (ie provide the same meals and service and entertainment as economy), allow purchase at minimal surcharge (say 10% - because some larger people might prefer to pay simply for the comfort factor), and allow people over a certain size (and that could be extremely tall - not just limited to overweight) the priority right to purchase them. If the seats in this category are presold, a purchaser has the option of buying two seats (if they positively have to be on that flight), or booking on another flight. The policy would act much the same as the policy for free flights with frequest flyer programs (ie only a certain number of seats - so book ahead). The seats would only be freed to be sold to the general public (ie waitlisted passengers) within 48 hours of the flight.

I don't think the proposal would be too much of an inconvenience or revenue loss for the airline. It also gives oversized people a routine opportunity to exercise that should cover at least 90% of eventualities.

Open to any other suggestions though - lets hear them [img]smile.gif[/img]

Edit - WOOHOO - I am level 20

[ 02-08-2003, 04:06 AM: Message edited by: Davros ]

[Epona]

OK, just so you know a bit of background, my dad is an aircraft safety certification engineer - ie. he makes sure that internal fittings of aircraft are safe and not going to buckle, break, or fly around, in the event of an emergency (which puts huge strain and g-forces on internal fittings - the last thing you want in bad turbulence or if you're dropping like a rock is seats breaking loose and flying around).

Now for some facts:

A passenger airliner will NOT crash due to having someone overweight on board. A Cessna light aircraft or a microlite may run into difficulties, but a Boeing 747 will not. Some thought should be given to balance of the load, but otherwise this is in no way dangerous to the safety of the flight.

Airline seats can withstand pressure of several tons being put on them and will not break just because an overweight person sits on one.

Airlines purposefully make seats for economy class as small as they can get away with - that way you can get more passengers on board, hence more money. We have all heard stories about how lack of leg-room can cause Deep Vein Thrombosis in passengers on long-haul flights, and most of us who have flown will know that even an average size person will be uncomfortable due to lack of leg room. Having seats that small is uncomfortable and dangerous, but airlines have calculated the estimate cost of increasing seat size against the estimate cost of legal action due to death from DVT and decided they'd keep the seats as they are. It is not just large people who are adversely affected by current seat sizing.

Seat sizes on commercial aircraft have shrunk over the years to maximise profit.

They are charging for 2 seats, but in reality people affected by this are only *able* to sit in one, due to the necessity of wearing the seat belt.

I would prefer to see larger seats with more leg room that would make it more comfortable for *all* passengers. But oh no, that would lose the airlines a bit of cash, and we wouldn't want their managing directors to have to downgrade their chauffer driven company car now, would we?

As usual, the blame is put on passengers instead of the money-grabbing airlines - they decide what width their seats will be, and all passengers suffer as a result.