12-04-2003, 09:52 AM | #91 |
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Freedom DOES include the freedom to murder someone. However, as Locke noted in his Second Treatise, the freedom to harm others is the one freedom we give up in order to live in a society and maintain our other freedoms.
Freedom to grow wings? That's too far into the philosophy of the word. That's like "freedom to own a Mercedes." Freedom means the liberty to behave as you please without social restrictions -- it doesn't mean ignoring the laws of science and demanding the impossible. |
12-04-2003, 09:53 AM | #92 | |
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I put bad in quotes because it is really a word based upon perception. For example, I don’t believe all murder to be bad nor do I believe a society that accepts murder to be bad. I just consider it natural. Also, like many words, there are multiple definitions for freedom. Of course people will have varying accounts of what they believe freedom to be, because they are usually just talking about different aspects often associated with the word. So, to define freedom, you must first define the construct to which you are applying the word. Not too hard really. |
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12-04-2003, 10:43 AM | #93 | |
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12-04-2003, 11:08 AM | #94 | |
White Dragon
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As for the freedom to grow wings it may not fit your definition of freedom, but thats simply your definition. There is no definite right or wrong on this one. Freedom may mean the liberty to behave as you please without social restrictions to you, but most philosophers would disagree with you. Hayek, Berlin, Skinner, Mill... fair enough you may believe they're wrong, but its a bit much to simply slap down a definition and then say its correct. A bit of justification wouldn't go amiss.
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[img]\"http://img1.ranchoweb.com/images/sproutman/certwist.gif\" alt=\" - \" /><br /><br /><i>\"And the angels all pallid and wan,<br />Uprising, unveiling, affirm,<br />That the play is the tragedy, man,<br />And its hero the Conquerer Worm.\"</i><br /> - Edgar Allan Poe |
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12-04-2003, 11:43 AM | #95 |
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Sorry, but I think Hayek agrees with me. Freedom and liberty are about social constructs and restrictions, and he too does not take the definitions to their abductio ad absurdam meanings -- such as sprouting wings.
______________________________________________ Justice, like liberty and coercion, is a concept which, for the sake of clarity, ought to be confined to the deliberate treatment of men by other men. ______________________________________________ Liberty is an opportunity for doing good, but this is only so when it is also an opportunity for doing wrong. ______________________________________________ ...the argument for liberty is not an argument against organization, which is one of the most powerful tools human reason can employ, but an argument against all exclusive, privileged, monopolistic organization, against the use of coercion to prevent others from doing better. _______________________________________________ What a free society offers to the individual is much more than what he would be able to do if only he were free. ________________________________________________ And, correct me if I'm wrong but Mill also analyzed personal freedom vis-a-vis the social order/ government. I think any of these thinkers, would only admit that "freedom" includes the freedom to sprout wings on a reductio ad absurdam level, and that to utilize the word in meaningful discussion, we must realize its utilitarian use is limited to the social context. |
12-04-2003, 11:59 AM | #96 | |
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12-04-2003, 12:18 PM | #97 | |
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12-04-2003, 12:31 PM | #98 |
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Well, I meant with my last reply that:
-There are a lot of people in Usa: bad, mad, insanes, avaricious... etc. but good, nice, sanes, generous too how in the rest of the world, but their presidents are so avaricious as I said. -I dont know why they attacked with the help of Blair and the stupid Ansaaaar (as Bush calls to Aznar)(I must say the andalusien people dont like this president he is Fascist (like franco and mussolini) but the north people are fascist and ...) -In the news (Public Spanish TV (La primera por si hay un español que lo lea) and A3) they say good things about USA, but the spaniard arent dumb, and we know what is happend. I must say I have got friends from USA and they arent dumb or avaricious how is the usa person stereotip. I hope not to hurt anybody with my words. Shaide |
12-04-2003, 12:41 PM | #99 | |
White Dragon
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Basically, the sprouting wings thing is just an example of why you have to be careful when drawing up a definition so it doesn't become absurd. I didn't say that all those guys thought that, just that they thought differently to you.
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[img]\"http://img1.ranchoweb.com/images/sproutman/certwist.gif\" alt=\" - \" /><br /><br /><i>\"And the angels all pallid and wan,<br />Uprising, unveiling, affirm,<br />That the play is the tragedy, man,<br />And its hero the Conquerer Worm.\"</i><br /> - Edgar Allan Poe |
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12-04-2003, 12:43 PM | #100 |
Knight of the Rose
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Umm actually Shaide, Bush is Republican, not fascist.
The stereotype for an American is Greedy and Stupid? That's really disturbing. People gotta stop judging solely based on the media. Posted by Shaide: "-In the news (Public Spanish TV (La primera por si hay un español que lo lea) and A3) they say good things about USA, but the spaniard arent dumb, and we know what is happend." Umm would you care to specify on that. I'm sure exactly whats being referred to or implied in that statement.
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