You Have A CHOICE

[Neb]

Whoever is either:

A) Hiding Bin Laden and refusing to hand him over

or

B) Whoever our governments decide to blame for hiding Bin Laden and not wanting to hand him over so that they will have an excuse to bomb them.

[Ryanamur]

Originally posted by Neb: If Bin Laden leaves, we take a look and see if the Taliban are violating any human rights, if they do, we continue to bomb the crap out of them and then give Afghanistan a new government which may or may not be better but will reflect the western "virtues". If the do NOT violate any human rights, then we leave Afghanistan and consider the bombings to be enough punishment for not handing over Bin Laden, this may or may not be correct, but this is probably what will happen.

So what you are saying is that Afghans are incapable of deciding by themselves what is right and what is wrong for them. Personnally, I find it sad that many Afghan died in the last 20 years but the fact of the matter is that it's not up to us to decide what will happen to them. We go around preaching the value of a democratic society, a society where people are free to decide for themselves. But what do we do when another society acts in ways that violates our own foundations: we throw our foundations out the window and try to impose our will and way of life on others. What a magnificient system we choose.

That general idea is what brought us here in the first place. We, Western Society, have a tendency to get involve in things that are just not of our business.

Let them be. They have their values and we have ours. Recongnize that and they, in return, will too. We stand around crying out loud because they target our value system. We cry because thousands die and blame it on their hatred of our values. They hate "democracy, freedom, liberty...", they don't understand us. You know what, we do the exact same to them. We hate their totalitarian regimes, their extremists beliefs... Why can't people just take a F***** big step back and look at the stupidity of human kind and realize that all those problems are caused because we cannot and will not accept things that are different than what we consider appropriate for us.

No, I didn't snap... not yet anyway

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I'm the Wanderer without a clan... I bring justice without favorism. Though you may not agree with it, my judgement is final... and inconsequential

[Neb]

I didn't say that they should not be allowed to choose for themselves, if they could choose a government that gives them voting rights, equal rights to women and upholds human rights, then it's okay, the government which will be "forced" upon them is merely a government until they elect one themselves and I didn't say that it was "right" to do so either, but it's probably what our governments are going to do.

[Ryanamur]

Originally posted by Neb: I didn't say that they should not be allowed to choose for themselves, if they could choose a government that gives them voting rights, equal rights to women and upholds human rights, then it's okay, the government which will be "forced" upon them is merely a government until they elect one themselves and I didn't say that it was "right" to do so either, but it's probably what our governments are going to do.

So it's Ok to force upon them a gouvernment that meets our standards . Because our standards are sooooooooooo much better and more understanding and value much more the beliefs of equality and the rights of one to decide by himself?

Sorry, I'm confused. The very values that we are defending as a democratic society are the values that we are willing to throw out the window on the basis that our system is better because we allow human rights, we allow woman to walk freely etc etc.

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I'm the Wanderer without a clan... I bring justice without favorism. Though you may not agree with it, my judgement is final... and inconsequential

[This message has been edited by Ryanamur (edited 10-17-2001).]

[Neb]

Originally posted by Ryanamur: So it's Ok to force upon them a gouvernment that meets our standards

No, but it's ok to remove a government that treats the population poorly and then put in a democratic government so that the populace can VOTE for which rulers they want, instead of just having the people who murdered the last rulers as their rulers.

[AzureWolf]

Originally posted by Neb: I'm not saying that any amount of civilians should be killed just to kill Bin Laden, but if only ten or so civilians were in the area then I would have no problems ordering the airstrike, but if it was 5000 civilians then I would NEVER do it, first of all, 5000 lives is too big a price to pay to kill Bin Laden, second, as you said, THOUSANDS of people would be up in arms if it happened, if not tens of thousands.

IMO 50000 is not worth any more than the taking of one life. One life become 10 which becomes 100 and then 1000 and you keep telling yourself that you are saving more people by doing this. Andn then what of the dead bodies you have left behind?

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"I was born of darkness. My fathers eyes closed before mine opened. I am not of this world or the other, and I have the right to be what I am..."

Overlord of all that I behold and anything that i happen to not notice either.

Founding Hamlet of the HADB.

Originally posted by Ryanamur: See, I consider the lives of others just too valuable for that. Of course, if they're all terrorist, that makes the equation easy. But as soon as you bring in people that are totally unaware of the situation (true innocents) then, I could not bring myself, ethicly speaking, to do it. I would let him go and make sure I don't loose sight of him.

Problem with this scenario is that these individuals use 'true innocents' to hide behind-literally! IMO, this is one of the definitions of cowardice, yet it is one of the most pervasive and successful forms of terrorism. Anybody remember Vietnam (or any other major conflict in the past?)? Children booby-trapped, women, the old and infirm and babies used for 'cover'. Americans (and, I'd like to think, any reasonable group of persons) are too soft-hearted (rightfully so!!!!!) to kill a child or woman out of hand because the thought of anyone using their innocence for horror is incomprehensible to the rational mind.

It would seem this is the stumbling block with this question--we cannot get past the thought that 'true innocents' will be killed and *that* is unacceptable. But, I ask you, if you were in that group of refugees and discovered (thru rumors, whatever) that bin Laden, the author of your misery and cause this has been rained upon you, might be in the group, do you honestly think you would sit quietly and go about your business? I can guaran-damn-tee you that as a woman under the Taliban, if presented with such a dilema--- the chance to take this man out yet perhaps dying in the process OR saving my own bacon so he could continue his hate-mongering elsewhere where my daughters might flee and so be under his mania once again--I'd take the sob out!!! If I couldn't do it myself, I'd find a way even if it meant going to the Americans and calling the airstrike myself!!!

I do *not* advocate slaughter. I do not get a vicarious thrill out of war and it's gruesome sacrifice of innocents. But I am a woman, a mother who will/would protect children to the end--even if it meant the heartbreaking choice a few to be lost so the majority might live. Would I sacrifice my own? I would go down first and not think twice, but never fear that I would provide for the young *before* I made that choice, get them to safety long before any action taken.

I would sooner rip my heart out than have harm come to my children. So would these women. But right now, it seems they have little choice--the Taliban has succeeded in denigrating the status of females to the point that they do not even have identity other than brood-mares and scapegoats. Is that what *you* would want for your sisters, your daughters, your mothers?!?

*That* may be the one thing our kind of government could offer these folks--the acknowledgement of the humanity of the female gender!!!

So, while you are sitting back in your nice cozy little rooms with a snug roof and bowl of popcorn, chomping on this question, remember how easy it is for us to make these judgement calls. None of us live under constant threat of seizure, none of us live in a never-ending state of gnawing hunger, listening to the cries of children whose bellies are empty (or more heart-wrenching, the ones who are too hungry and weak to even cry), never having to beg for bread because your husband/menfolk either died or cast you off and the regime has decreed the *only* avenue open to you is begging. None of go to bed at night wondering if we will wake up the next morning. None of us tremble with fear of the unknown, which to some now means what may happen within the next hour.

It is so very easy for us to sit in judgement and plot and plan what actions we consider 'right' or 'wrong'. But I ask you the same question I asked a very dear friend. If it was *your* family (mother, father, siblings or your children and spouse) lined within the scope of the rifle, would you stand back and allow them to perish without a fight? Or would you attack and pray you might be successful, even if it were only to allow the escape of *one*? My friend refused to answer. The question made him think too deeply against his personal conviction that nothing justifies taking another's life. I pose this same question to you.

Garnet

The Hard-nosed, Heart-broken Bitch

[Prime2U]

Originally posted by Ryanamur: So what you are saying is that Afghans are incapable of deciding by themselves what is right and what is wrong for them. Personnally, I find it sad that many Afghan died in the last 20 years but the fact of the matter is that it's not up to us to decide what will happen to them. We go around preaching the value of a democratic society, a society where people are free to decide for themselves. But what do we do when another society acts in ways that violates our own foundations: we throw our foundations out the window and try to impose our will and way of life on others. What a magnificient system we choose. That general idea is what brought us here in the first place. We, Western Society, have a tendency to get involve in things that are just not of our business. Let them be. They have their values and we have ours. Recongnize that and they, in return, will too. We stand around crying out loud because they target our value system. We cry because thousands die and blame it on their hatred of our values. They hate "democracy, freedom, liberty...", they don't understand us. You know what, we do the exact same to them. We hate their totalitarian regimes, their extremists beliefs... Why can't people just take a F***** big step back and look at the stupidity of human kind and realize that all those problems are caused because we cannot and will not accept things that are different than what we consider appropriate for us. No, I didn't snap... not yet anyway

Bearing in mind how long it's been since the people of Afghanistan have seen a stable government that gave them any rights... for one thing, even though they know the Taliban is terrible, it's still better for them than the constant warfare and rule by warlords they experienced before. Also, they are scared to voice opinions against the Taliban for fear of brutal punishment or death. The only way we will here from them their honest opinion of whether they like their government and what kind of government they'd like to see is to remove the Taliban threat...and by then it's too late (although once it's done I'm confident they will be very happy about it). If they want another Taliban give it to them with new heads, and if they want something different help them get that. In fact what is in the works is a moderate government headed by their own king in exile and with many of the moderate Taliban in it. I don't think the US will stop regardless of Bin Laden's location until the Taliban collapse.

Prime