They cut his head off...

[AzureWolf]

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Originally posted by Downunda:


Just curious, but how do you see America exactly?
What you say above is very true in that that is how a certain president projects himself.
Do you see it as a bully, beating the crap out of the little kid because the little kid kicked it in the shin or as something else?
Again, I'm not disrespecting your opinion, just curious as to how you veiw them. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Oh dont even get me started on Bush [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Seriously though America the country (ie the amazing landmarks like utah canyonlands) I absolutely love and plan to go visit again many times in my life. I did and still do have many American friends and not counting those on this forum, I lived there for a year. But all this going about chest beating I DONT like,
In short I like America and its people but i dont like its policies and fanaticist patriotism.

[Downunda]

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Originally posted by AzureWolf:

Altho Helen Clark still looks as much like a horse as she always did [img]tongue.gif[/img]

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LOL - too true!

[Barry the Sprout]

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:
Of course, as you mentioned in another thread, the debate about terrorism can really clog things up. The proof of that is that the decapitation of Daniel Pearl gets little more than a "that's bad, and the people who did it are bad, but..."

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There is no "but" for his death. It was horrible and should not have happened for whatever reason. The "but" was for your conclusion on how to react to it, which I disagreed with.

I just tend to think that this will cause more anger, more attacks, more hatred of the West. We are not going to solve this problem by making people scared of us, it might work normally but not for religious fundamentalists. That is my view based on their actions to date. We bombed 7 kinds of crap out of the only major world government to support them and they still do this kind of stuff. they ill not get scared of us, however hard we try. They will just get more and more angry and violent.

[K T Ong]

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I can also see and agree with your point of veiw regarding the west building its empire though the destruction of lesser developed nations, the question is... what can we do?

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Many things. Talk to people on the net (like we're doing now). Write books (if you're up to it). Give our support to those groups that champion the cause for a juster world (like Greenpeace). And so on.

I know, people are going to say, "It's been done, and it didn't and won't work." Well, I think the least we can do is try. The only alternative would presumably be to sit back and do nothing -- and I don't think we'd feel good about that option. As I see it, doing the right thing is often not just about getting results, it's also -- and perhaps more importantly -- about living up to the high calling of being a human being...

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:


To me it just proves that those who find it acceptable to target innocents also find it acceptable to mutilate them. Another good reason to eliminate instead of educate.


Some learning is painful. Have you ever seen a child stick their finger too close to a flame and get burned? They learn quickly not to touch the flame. Many lessons in life are learned this way. Not from respect, full bellies, or love, but "the hard way". You think Western Civilization should learn to keep it's finger out of the Middle Eastern Flame, I think terrorists should learn fire will kill them.

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Bman!! I agree with you all the way here, I have even written a term paper on the subject of teaching children and adults...PAIN is natures MOST effective teaching tool (not love, not respect and not time outs). The reason pain as a sense exists is to teach the organism NOT to do something STUPID. The people who believe that you can "reason" and "love" your way to peace have no appreciation for human or animal nature nor do they know anything about history. Time after time after time the peace and love crowd have been shown that they are dead wrong in the idea that you can reason with ruthless people. Give them love, give them food and clothing, give them wealth and 9 times out of 10 they will take those loving gifts you just gave them and turn them into weapons to use against you or their neighbors. And don't even get me started about the people who think we should have bargained with the terrorists to try and save that reporters life....

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Originally posted by K T Ong:


I'm deeply sceptical about this...

[ 02-25-2002: Message edited by: K T Ong ]

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I would assume that you then believe in the vast righwing conspiracy and the Men in Black and their Black Helicopters too......get real, the USA by policy and LAW does not target civilians and hundreds of US men and women give their lives each year making sure thier actions do as little damage to civilians as humanly and technologicly possible. Yes there may be individuals who are less scrupulous but don't even intimate that the USA doesnt do everything it can to avoid hurting the wrong people....and when this does happen the very first reaction is to send whatever aid we can to try and ameliorate the unintended damage,...good loooooord YOu have no idea how pissed off that silly assed one line smart assed comment of yours just made me.

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Originally posted by AzureWolf:

But I just dislike it when the US takes the moral highground on this when they have no right to.

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You are soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo wrong! The USA has EVERY right to take the Moral High Ground. Never before in History has any country anywhere done more for the human condition globaly than the USA, from food, to clothing to technology to physical aid the USA takes the moral high road. Yeah there are goofs and blunders and mistakes but compared to ALL that have come before the USA IS the MORAL compas...more than any other nation. We aren't perfect, but at least we strive to be, moreso as a nation than any other. In times of disaster there is ONE COUNTRY that is looked to for help first above all others, In times of War there is one Country that Does everything Humanly possible to limit hurting the innocent non-comabtents and ONE country that Redresses the mistakes it makes as best it can. I really wish you could go live in a truely oppressive society for a while, I know a Turkish immigrant (my hair stylist) who could more eloquently explain to you the greatness of this country, he who has actually lived a hard life in a tough part of the worl....your a hopless case...I don't know why I even bother...

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Originally posted by AzureWolf:


IMO NZ is far ahead morally than most western developed countries. You may not think so but when I moved to Aus from NZ you can tell many differences and to me NZ seems to emulate some of the higher moral qualities. Maybe because it is such a small country it is easier to bring about change but thats just the way it seems to me. Altho Helen Clark still looks as much like a horse as she always did [img]tongue.gif[/img]

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Easy to be morally ahead when you are too small to matter on a global scale...where there is no responsibility there is no need to make hard descisions. I love NZ as a country but no one will ever confuse it for a global mover and shaker.

[Larry_OHF]

I'm with you, MagiK.

You know...you'll hear these guys singing a different story when some guy kidnaps and murders their own. There ain't no man alive that will sit back and sing peace-loving songs when their wife and children have been raped and mutilated...and video-taped for him to see. The would be begging for revenge!

Off-topic...If I was ever to go into the service, I suppose it would be the Naval Air-Force. I have great eye-sight, which is prerequisit...I'm told. What do you think?

[Galadria]

All that I can say about this is said here
February 22, 2002 11:25 a.m.



I never met Danny Pearl, but during his captivity read about him and like many people came to admire the life he led. He was a real journalist — that is, he went about the world reporting stories — and appears to have had a profound dedication to understanding the Islamic world as well as other cultures, with the hope of bringing peace through understanding. In that he seems to have been an idealist, a rare quality in his line of work. Mr. Pearl wrote his stories in ink, but unfortunately ran afoul of a movement that writes its stories in blood. The good man is gone; the bad men are left to deal with.

His friends and colleagues will no doubt be writing a great deal about their dear friend in the days to come, but for some of us outside that circle there are things about Danny Pearl's life and death that made him emblematic of our times. For some of us, at least, his murder personalizes this war in which we are engaged. The attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon were so massive as to still be overwhelming; their death toll is something of a gruesome statistic. Slitting a gentle person's throat brings the matter into much sharper focus.

Through the weeks we came to know Danny Pearl's face; he photographed well and the pictures showed a jovial soul with a twinkle in his eye. Stories pointed out his dedication to humanity, one shared by his beautiful and pregnant wife. In an editorial mourning his death, the Wall Street Journal made references to these qualities, just as the paper earlier pointed out that his captors had much more to gain by letting him live to tell their story.

But his murder is another reminder that the people we are up against are not interested in having us understand them, nor are they interested in living in peace. Quite the contrary. They are interested in destroying their enemies and advancing their idea of the proper society, a society that makes no room for those who do not bow to their creed. Danny Pearl had everything going against him. He was a journalist, and an American, and as one suspect in his abduction said in a courtroom, he was a Jew.

That last designation is worth keeping in mind as we are reminded, time and again, that much of our trouble with Islamic radicals can be laid at the feet of our friendship with Israel. It is further insisted that once a Palestinian state has been created there will be peace.

The murder of Danny Pearl tells a much different story. For these radicals, the issue is not merely a Palestinian state. They do not believe Israel should exist. For them, there is no room in this world for the Jews. By killing Danny Pearl, who no doubt approved of a Palestinian homeland, they reminded us, if we indeed need reminding, that when they chant "kill the Jews" between chanting "death to America," they mean what they say.

For understandable reasons, well-meaning people continue to believe that with the correct aid package and enough economic development, all will be well. Once their bellies are full, we are told, their minds will radiate Karma. The horror of this conflict is that our opponents are not speaking from their stomachs and brains, but from their souls. Hatred is their soulcraft. It may well be true that they comprise only 10 percent of the Islamic population, but that still means 100 million people. A large legion is at the gate.


No disrespect is inherent in saying that had he lived, Danny Pearl would not have been so central a character as he is in death. He would have been another reporter — a very good one, to be sure — filing stories from the Middle East. But he is something much more than that now. We came to know him during the weeks of his captivity. The particulars of his life struck different people in different ways. There was his beautiful wife who offered herself up as ransom, and the fond remembrances of his colleagues, who spoke of his sense of humor and joy of life, which included a love of fiddle music.

The fiddle made an instant connection with me. One story told of his love of bluegrass, which took him to jam sessions at a Washington club. He was fond of a song entitled "Red Haired Boy" — a classic with a bouncing and instantly recognizable melody. It is so well known that a fiddler can kick it off without warning and within a few notes the guitarists, mandolin players, and bassists standing nearby will kick in. Suddenly, a quiet room is rocking.

I never met Danny Pearl, but I know people like him: The guy in the room sawing out Red Haired Boy, with a day job and a wife and a kid on the way; smiling when he hits his runs and swaying in the harmony he has brought out of a roomful of strangers. You may not know his name but he is your friend. Now they have taken a friend and slit his throat. Tell me no more