The great 'we are gonna put 6 fighters against 6 magi and look who is gonna win' question

it would depend on what levels each are at and also if the wizards are allowed to use warding spells(well placed of course)and farsight/detection so as to turn invisible before the fighters even know what bhit them......Now if you had some fighters that used terrain effectively....i do believe that bows can reach further then spells,maybe behind some rocks for additional cover.......i have to think more about this one,TOO MANY VARIABLES.

[Zoratorak]

hmm... fighters are strong and together with the cloak of reflection (which was meant for beholders) and with 100+% resistance you can give a magic user the time of his life... yet with the right spells, you can defeat any fighter...

here are some spells in which i experemented that can be useful against fighters even though they have cloak of reflection and magical resistances 100+%:
- fireshield (red or blue)- they hit you, you hit them so simple
- protection from magical weapons- they cant hit you with thier best weapons yet if they remove it they lose thier bonuses like resistance or something
- invisibility or improved invisibility- they can hit what they cant see ... good for escape for mages also
- sircucilum- nice to have a double casting spells the same as you
- mirror image- fighters will get dizzy right?
- summon monsters (any monsters)- to help bash thier heads
- summon a sword (mordikein sword, sorry i fogot the spelling) - but one hit and ouchie for fighters
- shapechange- to help you in small ways (for example... if you need healing just change into a troll and viola instant healing plus invisibility so you can heal as much as you want)
- ring of the ram (item)- no save... even againt reflection
- now... if all else fails... and you run out of spells... (for a lvl 50 fighter against lvl 50 mage)... just use imprisonment... instant death no save and poof bye bye...

thats it for my support for mages...

Wah's right, anything with extra elemental damage goes straight through stoneskins and weapon protections. If one of the fighters had the celestial fury the mages would be in trouble, since its stun also goes through every defense.

[Tobbin]

Ok, maybe I misunderstood this theoretical battle. I thought we were talking about in PnP games, if you mean CRPG, then you would be extremely restricted what you could do. Also, if this was a CRPG, are we saying that the fighters or mages or both were under computer control. We are talking artificial intelligence here, and to date, it sucks. Whoever the non-computer characters were, would probably win. Think fog of war. Delay tactics for spells to wear off. Etc. If you mean player/player, then it would go by available spells and/or computer delay for the mages and available protection items (if allowed) for either side. Nothing can truly match a PnP adventure. Don't get me wrong, CRPG make things look flashier, but you can not do anything/everything you want to in the game. If you can, then you are very short sighted in what a character can accomplish. Should I bribe an official to get a certain letter to become a lord so that I can infiltrate a nearby town? What about getting a rope and grapple in order to climb a wall of a particular establishment needing to be looted? What about seducing yon bar maid so that I can help my party members avail themselves of the back rooms free of charge? Suppose I decide that I want to bash into a room that is wizard locked and decide that I want to bust the wall in, instead? Can you do all of this and more at any given moment in a CRPG? No. You can't. Only what is scripted in. What about casting fly? How many Black Isle games will allow this? Spider Climb? Hmmmm. Can't seem to find that one. What about cantrips? Can I cast sneeze just to get a laugh from the party when I'm at a boring lecture and can endure no more from the speaker? Just a thought here.

Eh... yeah. Thing is, P&P AD&D is a lot more involved than a CRPG. You need a whole group of other friends who are willing, you need a lot of books, an able and imaginative dungeon master, a well-planned campaign... over the years I've come to the conclusion that probably the hardest day-to-day thing you can do is try and organise people. For those who don't have all the time and motivation to play P&P, a CRPG is a pretty good substitute. That aside, and despite the comments I made earlier, the mages probably would win, but it really depends on their levels and the skill of the people playing them. Oh, and whether or not they can pause the game freely, too, since selecting the right spell can be quite hard to do on the run.

[Tobbin]

Well, that's why I'm hoping that this Neverwinter Nights thing will work out pretty good. They will allow a human DM to oversee the game, so ... Well, maybe it won't be so hard finding other players and needing the books. We can only hope, right?

[Rikard T'Aranaxz]

you know if i would have named this topic
The great 'we are gonna put 6 fighters against 6 magi and look who is gonna win' POLL
we would have those the subject line must be less than 90 problem

[Memnoch]

In any PvP debate you need to first establish the groundrules. 1) What levels are we talking about. That makes a HUGE difference on which party I put my money on. 2) Is this CRPG or PnP. Which leads to 3) What buffs are allowed. A bunch of fighters (wizardslayer kits) with the appropriate buffs (Cloak of Cheating, Crom Faeyr, Oil of Speed etc) versus mages who have not had the appropriate spells memorized could take them out. But if the mages are allowed to cast spells like Timestop, Absolute Immunity, Gate etc then it makes a difference. Otherwise the entire discussion becomes a back-and-forth of 'if i had the Singlet of Total Magic Invulnerability I'd kick your ass!' and 'Oh but I'll use my Wand of Draining the Singlet of Total Magic Invulnerability and it'll be YOUR ass that gets kicked.' Establish the rules by which you're gonna PvP then go for it.

A final word: When you meet a group of enemies of various classes, there's usually a guy at the back, in a robe, who starts mumbling strange words. How many of us target HIM first, with either range weapons or spells? Just a thought.

Yep, all good points, 'specially the last bit, which I can well and truly relate to. First thing into a battle: chaos and/or emotion with that blasted mumbling mage in mind. : )

[Rikard T'Aranaxz]

That is so true memnoch
but you shouldn't only target the guy in the strange cloathing (but it looks good though)
but also the guy in the armor saying strange words and point at the sky