Human nature

[Dreamer128]

Is there such a thing as human nature? Normally I would say, no. That every human being is different. But when I look at the history of our kind. I wonder. Through out human history, one thing has always remained the same. The strong abuse the weak. When we sailed out and discovered new cultures, what did we too? We crushed them, or we enslaved them if they werent suitable for anything else.
Have we learned nothing in the millenia's we have spend on this world? For nothing has changed. The poor country's still get oppresed by the rich ones. But instead of really helping them, we blind ourselves with our so-called charity's. Does anyone care how many miles of tropical rainforest had to be cut for that nice table? Does anyone care that those fancy shoes were made by childeren? Our goverments claim to be helping the third world country's, but all I see is that we get richer. And they get poorer. Multinationals move to the country's with the least laws, so they can abuse the enviroment and the workers.
Goverments claim to help the third world to restore their economy, but yet they force those country's to accept agreements that benifit us, not them. The US provides weapons to criminal regimes (such as the Taliban) who continue to kill thousands of inocents. Is that civilation?
Please tell me I am wrong here, for I am almost ashamed to be human.

[DiabloRex]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dreamer128:
The US provides weapons to criminal regimes (such as the Taliban) who continue to kill thousands of inocents. Is that civilation?

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It is part of civilation yes, but its another part of what we know as civilation. The part of the civilaition thats about economy and making money.

But yes I do believe that their is a thing such as "human nature" Essentially its all about surviving.

[Rikard_OHF]

quote:

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Originally posted by DiabloRex:


It is part of civilation yes, but its another part of what we know as civilation. The part of the civilaition thats about economy and making money.

But yes I do believe that their is a thing such as "human nature" Essentially its all about surviving.

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Personnally I think the fact we have "to make money" is sickening
Call me a communist
And maybe i am
But what a beautiful word it would be if we needed no money
Where would work not to gain more
but because it will support humanity
Where all are working
And all get equil resources
But because of Human nature
because we always want more then the other
Because we firts and foremost care for our selfs
This is not possible
I'm realistic enough to know that
But it's a damn shame

[Rikard_OHF]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dreamer128:
Is there such a thing as human nature? Normally I would say, no. That every human being is different. But when I look at the history of our kind. I wonder. Through out human history, one thing has always remained the same. The strong abuse the weak. When we sailed out and discovered new cultures, what did we too? We crushed them, or we enslaved them if they werent suitable for anything else.
Have we learned nothing in the millenia's we have spend on this world? For nothing has changed. The poor country's still get oppresed by the rich ones. But instead of really helping them, we blind ourselves with our so-called charity's. Does anyone care how many miles of tropical rainforest had to be cut for that nice table? Does anyone care that those fancy shoes were made by childeren? Our goverments claim to be helping the third world country's, but all I see is that we get richer. And they get poorer. Multinationals move to the country's with the least laws, so they can abuse the enviroment and the workers.
Goverments claim to help the third world to restore their economy, but yet they force those country's to accept agreements that benifit us, not them. The US provides weapons to criminal regimes (such as the Taliban) who continue to kill thousands of inocents. Is that civilation?
Please tell me I am wrong here, for I am almost ashamed to be human.

---

You Don't Have to be Ashamed
Look at the Dokters who work so hard to keep people alive
Look at the Nature Activist, Doing everything they can to restore nature
Look at Yourself, for caring for you fellow humanbeing
There is a lot that's good
And one should never forget that

[Thoran]

I've been giving this some thought lately... it's a tough thing to accept, the things that humans do to other humans and the world around us.

Human Nature - I think the use of the word "Nature" is important here. If you look at Nature it won't take long for you to realize is a harsh mistress. In "Nature", only the strong survive. In "Nature", if you're a creature that needs 2 quarts of water a day and you live in a desert... you will die. In "Nature", if you're blind, deaf, crippled... you're dead, it's the way nature insures that only the best genes of any species propegate. In "Nature", you're goal is to create progeny, as many and as strong as possible. He who's seed takes over the world... wins.

"Nature" is WAR, it's violent, senseless, arbitrary, cruel.

It's in our attempts to rise above this that we become Human. At the same time that we help our fellow man and strive to be compassionate, we can NEVER escape that we are a part of Nature and ultimately bound by it's rules. Our psyche is intimately tied to the base drives that Nature demands we have to succeed. We NEED to have something to work for, we NEED to see our labor accomplish something in order to feel fulfilled. The weakness of socialism is that they tried to deny this simple and unavoidable reality. If a high performing individual is given the same life as a low performing individual... you eventually reduce the entire civilization to a "least common denominator" state where no one is motivated to achieve... because it gains them NOTHING that "Nature" (and thus those base drives we all live with) values.

I would LOVE to be able to say that humanity has evolved to the point where the motivation for "group" success within a person is stronger than the motivation for "self" success... but we aren't there yet, and given the time required for even basic changes in physiology I'd guess it will be thousands of years before that might happen... and even then it will ONLY happen if there's a clear "Natural" advantage to doing so.

We can kid ourselves with the notion that we live in an enlightened world... but in the end "Nature Rules". All we can strive for is to UNDERSTAND the things that really motivate and try to exert a positive influence over the more self centered drives.

Maybe that sounds a bit pessimestic... in reality I'm an optimist about human prospects. I see slow change, and if we can hold it together long enough we may get there. Keep in mind that Humanity has only been the "Master of all it surveyed" for a bit over a century. Before that we were struggling for survival against nature... the true hope IMO is that we change from struggle against nature to the "Guardians of Nature". Some already are there in this world, most are not. But I have faith.

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: Thoran ]

[Dreamer128]

Funny you brought up nature, since we seem to think of it as our proporty. It anoys me that people seem to think of this planet as their proporty, our birthright, while there are countless other species here. And how many of those havent been wiped out in the name of profit?

[Rikard_OHF]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dreamer128:
Funny you brought up nature, since we seem to think of it as our proporty. It anoys me that people seem to think of this planet as their proporty, our birthright, while there are countless other species here. And how many of those havent been wiped out in the name of profit?

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Sad Thing is
Eventually we'll be whiped out by Evolution
Coz the way we live just ain't efficient

[Dreamer128]

quote:

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Originally posted by Rikard_OHF:


Sad Thing is
Eventually we'll be whiped out by Evolution
Coz the way we live just ain't efficient

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I think we will destroy the planet before it destroys us.

[jabidas]

Im going to very blunt about this. Man is still out in the jungle, its only the trees that have changed.

You can talk all you want about modern morality but the truth is that the strong beat down the weak for their own advantage.

You can call modern wars wars of liberation if you want, but the truth is that first world countries beat on lesser powers for economic advantage its that simple. Free trade is another bad joke, free trade is the west keeping its boot on the neck of everywhere else forcing their faces into the mud with crippling economic sanctions and limitations.

And lets be frank, If some presently weak country had global power today they would do the same thing.

I guess you could call man evil and say that his only goal is power, but what is good and evil, they're just words, opinions, the want for absolute control is just something all animals have, no matter what lies you cover it in.

What have we learned? how to keep the world down. Let me give you an image of the future, a heavy boot smashing into a face over and over and over forever.

Ideas like Love, justice, equality and truth are just cheap lies for any misfit and loser who couldn't face the world the way it is. They couldn't hack it so they have ideals to console themselves with. And that's why the world is the way it is, people are weak. If they could stand on their feet and not revert to some distant impossible self deception and actually pay attention to way things are the world would change.

[Sir Kenyth]

quote:

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Originally posted by Thoran:
The weakness of socialism is that they tried to deny this simple and unavoidable reality. If a high performing individual is given the same life as a low performing individual... you eventually reduce the entire civilization to a "least common denominator" state where no one is motivated to achieve... because it gains them NOTHING that "Nature" (and thus those base drives we all live with) values.

I would LOVE to be able to say that humanity has evolved to the point where the motivation for "group" success within a person is stronger than the motivation for "self" success... but we aren't there yet, and given the time required for even basic changes in physiology I'd guess it will be thousands of years before that might happen... and even then it will ONLY happen if there's a clear "Natural" advantage to doing so.

We can kid ourselves with the notion that we live in an enlightened world... but in the end "Nature Rules". All we can strive for is to UNDERSTAND the things that really motivate and try to exert a positive influence over the more self centered drives.

Maybe that sounds a bit pessimestic... in reality I'm an optimist about human prospects. I see slow change, and if we can hold it together long enough we may get there. Keep in mind that Humanity has only been the "Master of all it surveyed" for a bit over a century. Before that we were struggling for survival against nature... the true hope IMO is that we change from struggle against nature to the "Guardians of Nature". Some already are there in this world, most are not. But I have faith.

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: Thoran ]

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Good post! Socialism and communism have a hard time working because of a lack of motivation. That's why propaganda is so popular in these types of governments. Regardless of what government you have, you always get the same thing. The rich and the poor are existant in every one! As far as chrity goes, people are willing to help others. As long as it doesn't hurt them. Really, can you blame us? Helping other third world countries requires more than pumping money into them. It requires a change in the way they live. It requires enlightening the ignorant. It's not as easy as it sounds. Change scares folks and scary things are evil to the barbaric. Do you watch educational channels? Some places are still so primitive and barbaric that they practice body mutilation as rites of manhood and womenhood! Some tried to bring their practice with them to the US. They were quite surprised and outraged when they were prosecuted for what they did to their children! That's how strong the ignorance is! They weren't running away from ignorance, they brought it with them! I think I'll open up a thread on what I read. I'm getting off topic here.