Is it better to carry a gun or not?

[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by Noble Wolf: Point taken, But you missed the lock em up and throw away the key. Rehabilitation doesn't exist. Criminals or criminally minded folk should be removed from my society and used for "humane" experimentation or some other society benifitting purpose. Then who will get stabbed. Also, please note the stabbing perpetrator has still to contend with ARMED police. Drill one through his head and see who he/she stabbs.

And just who would be in charge of this Utopia? What if it became somebody like Bin Laden, Joseph Stalin or Fujimora the Ex-President of Peru who was unwilling to be elected OUT of office? Would that be good? What would we do then? Would the general population have a means of getting rid of such trash in this Utopia?

While I'm all for punishment of crime, I'm not for "humane experimentation or some other society benifitting purpose." That's a little Hitlerisque for me. It also seems that locking ALL criminals up and throwing away the key is not quite the answer. Where do we stop at that kind of punishment. Oh let's see, if a 18 year old kid steals a beer from the local 7-11 freezer, he's obvoiusly a criminal element, so let's lock him up for the rest of his life! Makes a lot of sense. Kind of like the State of California locking a man up for life under the three strikes your out deal, after he stole a peice of pizza (true story). So the whole state gets to pay for this guy for the rest of his life. Yeap, that makes a lot of sense.

Makes me sorry I don't live in a world like that... NOT!

Your Utopia is a little simplistic to me.

[ 05-03-2002, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Sir Taliesin ]

[Noble Wolf]

One of the points brought up in support of people having their own firearms was that, the sort of criminals that use firearms understand only fear. Well I merely wish to orate the view that this "fear" should be imposed collectively by us as a civilised society - rather than individually by us as a bunch of mad gun totting maniacs.

I personally, would like to see how a first world democracy could degenerate to a point where any of the people you list could even hope to gain acceptance, let alone some form of power.

[Epona]

Originally posted by Noble Wolf: I personally, would like to see how a first world democracy could degenerate to a point where any of the people you list could even hope to gain acceptance, let alone some form of power.

How naive! It doesn't take a great leap of imagination to see how it could happen, surely? Just yesterday in Britain, Nazis won 3 seats in Burnley local elections, just look at France and the gains made by J-M Le Pen in recent times - this is a man who claims the holocaust to be a 'detail of history'. These are all people who admire Hitler and what he stood for.

[Neb]

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: quote: Originally posted by Noble Wolf: Point taken, But you missed the lock em up and throw away the key. Rehabilitation doesn't exist. Criminals or criminally minded folk should be removed from my society and used for "humane" experimentation or some other society benifitting purpose. Then who will get stabbed. Also, please note the stabbing perpetrator has still to contend with ARMED police. Drill one through his head and see who he/she stabbs.

And just who would be in charge of this Utopia? What if it became somebody like Bin Laden, Joseph Stalin or Fujimora the Ex-President of Peru who was unwilling to be elected OUT of office? Would that be good? What would we do then? Would the general population have a means of getting rid of such trash in this Utopia?
[/QUOTE]Well, the problem is that if ther was a GOOD president then a small group of people could get rid of HIM as well as if it was a BAD president. So while your argument is true in the case of a BAD president ruling the "Utopia", it's unfortunately also able to ruin a good "Utopia" with a good president.

[Noble Wolf]

I said it before

The problem is people keep whining about their "civil" rights - well what about MY right to feel safe in my house, in my suburb, in my city, without the need to have a GPMG under the bed. People who want to shoot firearms as some form of "sport" I can live with, providing that their prepared to have their weapons kept locked away in special facilities.

We don't have a gun mad mentality here in Australia and those few criminals that choose to carry or use firearms know that the penalties for doing so are a lot, lot, LOT worse.(and I strongly believe that these penalties still could be doubled or trippled)

Taking firearms away from people doesn't solve crime - but if you make it nearly impossible to obtain or acquire them(by not having them freely distributed throughout your society) you make the "likelyhood" of a violent offence involving firearms occurring less. In the 1800,s people living in frontier regions of the world "may" have had reason to carry firearms; but I thought I was living in the 21st century.

[ 05-03-2002, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: Noble Wolf ]

[Noble Wolf]

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin Kind of like the State of California locking a man up for life under the three strikes your out deal, after he stole a peice of pizza (true story). So the whole state gets to pay for this guy for the rest of his life. Yeap, that makes a lot of sense.

Rehabilitation doesn't exist. Criminals or criminally minded folk should be removed from my society and used for "humane" experimentation or some other society benifitting purpose.

Ever given any thought as to why so many places in the world are beginning to lean "uncomfortably" towards the right.

And who are the individuals you would like to see in posession of firearms????

[ 05-03-2002, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Noble Wolf ]

[MILAMBER]

Originally posted by Noble Wolf: Sir Kenyth, I was an officer in the army and was trained in using weapons from pistol to howizter. GUNS ARE BAD Without trying to put to blunt a point on it - there are more people killed EACH day by guns in the USA than there are killed in several years in countries like Japan. (where firearms are prohibited) There is only ONE answer to the gun/death combination - make firearms TOTALLY illegal, and the penalties for being caught with one should make life imprisonment doing hard time look like a weekend at summer camp. (lock up the offenders and FORGET them - end of story) Then when firearms have been removed from all but military and police services you will end up with a society where people can walk down the street at night.

It'd never happen. Also, look at the population difference between here and Japan. Of course there will be more deaths here.

[Elif Godson]

The problem I have is with our judicial system and
liberalist's. A criminal caught dead to right's smoking gun and all seems to have more rights then the victim now a day's. Not start a flame war here, but look at the prisoners in cuba. People say that they are being mistreated, They are criminals of war for crying out loud, they get a bed a roof over there head 3 square meals a day
and recreation time where as a anyone caught in another country
is lucky to have even a meal thAT they can eat. You will alway's have someone suing for right's, or crying out that it is unfair no matter where you go. I think it is time we buck up, you do the crime you do the time, and I mean the punishment should befit the crime.
A person should not, and I repeat should not be allowed to melest a child, and have the defense that there parent or relative did it to them and be let off again and again. Sick people like this cannot be rehabilitated and should a: be under lock and key or b: be put down like a rabid animal. When was it right for a murder to commit his crimes be caught in the actand then let go because the officer didnt read him the miranda right's ??!!! WTF lawyer's suck and the people that get this scum off need to be put in jail also. I beleave in innocent until proven guilty, but if the person has the evidence on them and there are pictures and wittneses, put them away
I know this has absolutley nothing to do with this thread, but ultimatley it does. It doesnt just deal with firearms or knives or even a frickin bow, we human's are the most destructive animal on this planet and the most deviant and intelligent, we can create and destroy at a whim. It is not the weapons we make, it is us and only us
we have to take responsibility somewhere and stop saying that it is the weapon that did it, ultimatley it was you, the person holding it or pushing the button or flipping the trigger, busk up and take responsability for christ's sake and stop your whinig about it. If you where in the military you joined to fight, because that is what the military is for. You are trained to kill people no if's and's or butt's about it. If you dont like "weapon's of mass destruction", tuff luck it is what we have created in our mind's and made physicall
we, the human race did it, not an alien or some other entity. If you want to make a change about the way thing's are then do it. Weapon's will alway's be here whether they are sticks and stones or "weapon's of mass destruction" we like to kill stuff and then make it anew, it is the way we are, all of us somewhere deep inside, it is just how you act or react on it is what makes you different.
Sorry for the long winded ness of this post..

[Noble Wolf]

to Elif Godson,

HEAR! HEAR!!

Hit that nail clean and square on the head.

[ 05-03-2002, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Noble Wolf ]

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Alexander: You seem to think that any armed Jews would be armed and trained in the exact same way as the Germans were - which, as we know, would not be true.

Not at all, you're right of course about trainging, but it's fairly standard that an armed resistance inside your borders will require many more troops to quell than the numbers of those armed against you. Look at Israel for instance, I'd guess there's at least an order of magnitude (probably several) more Israeli troops involved in trying to control terrorism than there are terrorists.