What happens when the socialist get power (Berkley Ca)

[khazadman]

well let me ask you something dramnek.if this law was adopted in europe and north america would these "free trade" growers be able to meet the demand?i doubt it.and what about the people working in the plantation system?they make up the vast majority of growers.what happens when these people can no longer sell their coffee?what happens to their employees?not all of them will be able to make the transition.and if they cannot meet the demand,prices will go through the roof.and of course i guess it's not important that the people have the right to choose which kind of coffee they want.not everybody can afford to pay for this more expensive coffee.

[Oblivion437]

Well, you see, I hadn't seen a copy of the book in some time, so my mistake...

Originally posted by khazadman: well let me ask you something dramnek.if this law was adopted in europe and north america would these "free trade" growers be able to meet the demand?

fair trade is about giveing a decent price and makeing sure the money is used to benefit the whole communites, once you start paying the fair price, the infrastructural changes can follow afterwoulds.

Originally posted by khazadman: i doubt it.and what about the people working in the plantation system?they make up the vast majority of growers.what happens when these people can no longer sell their coffee?

The plantation systems are exploitative; it would not be hard for intervention to compel them to convert to a fair trade system,
It takes only the will to do so, and the desire to make a change for the better.

Originally posted by khazadman: what happens to their employees?not all of them will be able to make the transition.and if they cannot meet the demand,prices will go through the roof.and of course i guess it's not important that the people have the right to choose which kind of coffee they want.

The right to choose what products you want, should not be at the expense of other people. It is only fair to restrict the usage of capital and the consumption of it (to a *CERTAIN EXTENT*) since it requires a collective and dependant effort to produce all of it.

Originally posted by khazadman: not everybody can afford to pay for this more expensive coffee.

It’s not that much more expensive, indeed it is acutally a Fair price.
Would you rather help others immeasurably at a tiny cost to yourself, or would you rather count your pennies?

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

Who cares about whether people are starving in Columbia, It’s their fault for being poor right?

You got it. If you cant make a decent living doing what your doing , then get a diffrent job!! Nobody forced them to be farmers. It isnt the job of the rest of the world to give them handouts. If they cant survive on their own metrit then maybe the world would be better off with out them.

[ 06-22-2002, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: The Hunter of Jahanna ]

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: quote: Who cares about whether people are starving in Columbia, It’s their fault for being poor right?

You got it. If you cant make a decent living doing what your doing , then get a diffrent job!! Nobody forced them to be farmers. It isnt the job of the rest of the world to give them handouts. If they cant survive on their own metrit then maybe the world would be better off with out them.[/QUOTE]Erm... You're just kidding now, right? Tell me that you are... [img]graemlins/uhoh1.gif[/img]
Either way, don't forget that those farmers probably don't even *have* the opportunity to do anything else in their poor country, keep in mind people don't always have a say in what they do for a living or not. It's easy talking sitting behind a computer in a country with the actual posibility to choose your own way of making a living.

[ 06-22-2002, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: You got it. If you cant make a decent living doing what your doing , then get a diffrent job!! Nobody forced them to be farmers.

Ermm, I think you need to expand your mind a bit, and perhaps travel to some 3rd world countries or maybe even GRAB A KLEW!!!!!!!!

NOT EVERYBODY HAS THE SAME OPPURTUNITES AS U.S CITIZENS!!!!!!!!

not even all U.S citizens have the same oppurtunities and chances.

In many places around the world, people cannot even get a primary school education; they have to go out to work to support their families at about 10-14 years of age, if they have no qualifications, and no oppurtuniites, how are they supposed to get a job that allows them to survive well?

Do you really think that these people are living in poverty and having more than 35% of their children die before the age of 4 because they are lazy?

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: It isnt the job of the rest of the world to give them handouts.

Yes it is, (to a certain extent)
All have a duty towards all, since all production requires the social and communal effort.
(IMHO, YMMV)

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: If they cant survive on their own metrit then maybe the world would be better off with out them.[/QB]

Shall we kill all the old people then?
What about all the babies and children
They can’t survive by themselves can they,
So lets kill them all…
After all we’ll have more €’s right?

[ 06-22-2002, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: Dramnek_Ulk ]

[Barry the Sprout]

Ooooh! A thread specifically created to insult socialism! Something that will really inspire me to post sensibly and debate the issues at hand! I recommend socialists get out of this one, it doesn't seem to be really set up with us in mind.

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: Ooooh! A thread specifically created to insult socialism! Something that will really inspire me to post sensibly and debate the issues at hand! I recommend socialists get out of this one, it doesn't seem to be really set up with us in mind.

You’ve just destroyed my faith in humanity, you wicked, wicked man.
Oh! The tragedy, I’m ashamed to be a human.
If anyone asks, I’m a fox.
Take comfort however in the fact that Karl Marx had a beard, and so did Engels.

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: It isnt the job of the rest of the world to give them handouts. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes it is, (to a certain extent) All have a duty towards all, since all production requires the social and communal effort. (IMHO, YMMV)

I will use Japan as an example of why its not the rest of the worlds job to give 3rd world farmers handouts. The Japaneese had a great idea that I wish my countrie would use. It was called "Isolationism". For many years the emperors in Japan sunk any ship that came near their shores and refused to trade with the rest of the world. Their unique culture thrived and flourished without ANY influence or goods from the outside.

As far as I am concerned if a small chain of islands in the pacific can do that on limited resouces , so can the rest of the world. There are no handouts in nature , you are either the lion or you are dinner.I preffer to not be dinner. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, let him figure out how to get fish on his own and maybe get rid of the competition.

[flibulzbuth]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: I will use Japan as an example of why its not the rest of the worlds job to give 3rd world farmers handouts. The Japaneese had a great idea that I wish my countrie would use. It was called "Isolationism". For many years the emperors in Japan sunk any ship that came near their shores and refused to trade with the rest of the world. Their unique culture thrived and flourished without ANY influence or goods from the outside. As far as I am concerned if a small chain of islands in the pacific can do that on limited resouces , so can the rest of the world. There are no handouts in nature , you are either the lion or you are dinner.I preffer to not be dinner. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, let him figure out how to get fish on his own and maybe get rid of the competition.

I totally agree with the last paragraph, but this argumentation is out of phase with the current economic and political situation.

1- I'm not a king of far east history but: Japan was isolationist, but most of all it was imperialist. In the end of the XIXth and in the XXth century, Japan developped herself in the same way that Europe did: colonizing "lesser" cultures to support the industrial growth. After world war II, Japan benefited from an american Marshall plan to twart the communist menace in Asia posed by the USSR and China.

2- No third-world country governement can survive if he tries to protect it's national market. You said it, you're either the lion or the dinner, and the lion wants his dinner. Lumumba (Congo) was assassinated by the CIA in the early 60ies from trying to do so, Sankara (Burkina Faso) was eliminated in the 80ies with the consent of developped countries for trying to do so, Pinochet's bloody coup-d'état was sponsored by the CIA, ditto with Guatemala in the 50ies. Not that it always work though, Cuba and recently Venezuela are two botched attempt to do so. But these are exceptions.

3- Those countries have aquired so many debts since the 50ies, they are bound to obey the World Bank and IMF. Failure to do so leads to the scenario explained above. Main IMF strategy is to force the markets opened (including the banks, allowing the flow of money out of the small national institutions to bigger western banks), radically cut the expenses on social care (education, healthcare etc...), and to cut any subvention to agriculture.

Actually, it is cheaper for them to buy north-american weath and corn than the one grown locally because our production receives heavy subventions. In these conditions, small farmers can't survive. They sell their lands to bigger export producers (bananas, cacao etc...). Because of the free flow of money (outward), the value of the local currency goes down to the bottom. Then the big exports producers are happy, they can sell their goods for cheap on the international market, but the people can't afford the price of basic food. This is oversimplified, i know, but i won't write an essay on this.

(As a side story, the only agricultural expense i know that has been backed and allowed by the IMF was the purchase of 800 tons of hoes and hatchets by Rwanda's government prior to the 1994 genocide).

4- You might support this sort of politics... But for the many of us that don't, the best thing to do is to work locally, puting pressure on our authorities to reduce the abuse that we would otherwise tacitally approve. The Berkley initiative, although flawed, is an example of it. And as long as they work through democratic processes, i wish them well.

[ 06-22-2002, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: flibulzbuth ]