More ramblings from me.

[Ar-Cunin]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Donut: If I couldn't swim would I jump in to save a complete stranger - probably not. If it were a child I probably would, if it was a friend or a member of my family then of course I would.

Why does it matter if it is a child? [/QUOTE]Most adults feel protective towards children - In the hostage situation in Moscow the children have recently been released - because (IMO) any outsider will consider the killing of children an especially barbaric act.

Originally posted by Ar-Cunin: Most adults feel protective towards children - In the hostage situation in Moscow the children have recently been released - because (IMO) any outsider will consider the killing of children an especially barbaric act.

Good point. That whole situation in Moscow is really distressing. I hope they manage to work things out without a lot of killing. I would really like to see the Russian people finally get a peaceful, prosperous nation.

[Sazerac]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: Originally posted by Sazerac: Forgive me for saying so, but I have yet to see anyone who has committed any act that can be truly said to be "selfless." Everything we do, we do for a personal reason of some sort or another...be that person religious or anti-religious. -Sazerac

I disagree Sazerac. Have you ever simply opened a door for someone you didn't know and may never meet again? If you define selfish to include the little warm fuzzy feeling, however infinitesmal, you may feel, then you have defined "selfish" so broadly that of course there are never any selfless acts. However, I have opened a door for someone without ever doing any "good v. evil" of "self interest" calculus in my head. Just was the thing to do. [/QUOTE]Although the self-motivation may be largely subconscious for most of the acts you give as examples, it's there; don't kid yourself. It's also nothing to be ashamed of, unless one starts feeling sanctimonious about it.

Let me ask you: why was it the "thing to do"? To make someone else feel better? Why was that important? Because it makes *you* feel better to do so, however slight or subconscious that may be.

-Sazerac

[Timber Loftis]

Thanks to Aelia Jusa for noting that my homicidal / genocidal tendancies extent to all nations and all peoples. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

MagiK, As for "overcrowdedness" it's a state of mind. When I'm in the Big South Fork, TN, one other group on the trail in my favorite rockhouse is too croweded for me. When I stand atop Camel's Hump in VT I'm always sad because I've never had the whole bald mountaintop to myself. When I'm in Chicago, though, I find myself thinking all the time "Are those REALLY 2 of the 3 tallest buildings in America, 'cause they don't seem so big - hell, is 100 stories still a Very Very tall building in the new mellenium? Is this REALLY as dense as a city gets, 'cause it doesn't seem so bad?" See - all perspective.

As for inherent niceness, Saz, and universal truths, MagiK, I think we are splitting hairs here. There are things that are generally believed by almost all societies. Several anthorpologists have pointed them out. One is the taboo nature of incest.

It is the existence of generally agreed-upon truths that I have seen some posters on this thread (and others) use as proof of God, in fact. I don't challenge the fact that there are generally understood truths. I simply challenge the notion that a God put it there.

And I think these generally understood truths are both the "warm fuzzies" MagiK and I keep referring to as well as the "selfishness" Saz and others mention. Try that on for size and let me know how it fits.

[ 10-25-2002, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

A little loose in the waist and needs a skosh more room in the crotch. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Timber Loftis]

Sorry, MagiK, maybe my statement was too robust in the waist - I'll take a tuck in it. BUt, as for tight in the crotch - I thought it was certainly ballsy enough. Maybe not for you though.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by antryg: (2) I admit that PK's have a horribly rough time caused by other people's expectations and the less than perfection experienced in every family.

What is a P.K. in this context?

I've read much of C.S.Lewis too. Brilliant man.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Donut: As for giving up my life for someone else it would depend on the circumstances.

There are a number of people who I would die for.

[antryg]

Yorick I was making a reference to the family influences in Timber Loftis life. A pk is a preachers kid. They not only see and experience the imperfections and falling short in their own lives; outsiders make unrealistic demands on how that child should live and behave solely because of the preacher in the family. It is sometimes a social pressure that wants to short circuit the whole concept of free will. Just one of the reasons why people become anti-religion.

[Sir Krustin]

Originally posted by Ishanda: I was kinda looking for the go-ahead before I add my fifty cents.... {big snip} As such, EVERY single person in the world has belief but not everyone has religion. From a purely logical point of view, Atheism is neither for the weak nor strong minded person since it is not a religion, but a belief about the nature of all things. Interestingly, Agnosticism is logically not a valid form of belief. LOL...you can not not believe that you have no beliefs. OK, before I get shot down in flames I'll go now

I disagree with that last...in my view, there aren't very many true athiests...most are agnostics with a chip on their shoulder (so to speak) vis-a-vis religion.

Agnosticism is a denial of religion, athiesm is a denial of god.