More ramblings from me.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by MagiK: Can someone who is a true atheist explain to me in small words, why exactly any true atheist would ever be self sacrificing or compasionate, or in any way exhibit any behaviour which does not directly work toward your own benefit? Im not trying to bash anyone. Im just looking for a rationale.

First, MagicK, I would have to say that I guess this explanation is what I'm trying to provide throughout all of my posts on this thread. Second, your question seems to assume that people are basically selfish and not compassionate. I disagree. I think there is something compassionate in many people. I know atheists who take puppies and kittens in off the street all the time, even though they already have plenty of love from animals and people alike at home.

Yes, you can argue that "feeling good" is serving a selfish need, but that discussion turns in on itself eventually. Being compassionate often feels good. If these "good" qualities weren't inherent in people, I assert, we would not have so much fixation with martyrdom - which is something Christians and Muslims alike revere ultimately (not to pick on those religions specifically). I think this fixation is brought to religions by humans moreso than it is brought to humans by religion. There's something to be said for the feeling of dying with purpose.

Let's make an assumption here, for argument's sake, that God dies tomorrow, and all the saints told everyone that there would be no more screening to get into heaven and that, in his will, God pardoned all people of past and future sin. Just go with it, okay? Certainly there are some who would run amuck a cause havoc. What about you? Random killing of liberals? Seriously, though, would you not ever do any more good, kind, or charitable acts?

It does amaze me how many religious people say "then why do good" when you tell them you don't believe in god. Don't they see it as an insult to themselves that they feel the only reason anyone does good is because of a diety?

My question was for a rationale. Without a Religious figurehead of some sort, for what reason would a rational being (assumeing humans qualify at all) put someone ahead of self. I made no assumption of christian or pagan or any other religion, I am asking only Atheists, what their rationale is for selflessness. I did not deny that they were or could be. I hope this clears up the issue.

[ 10-23-2002, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by MagiK: [QB)You know, Karl Marx (the originator of the opiate phraseder of one of the worst failures at social engineering and someone who it has been argued knew nothing of human nature (or at least didn't account for it at all in his plans) and whose philosophy has been used to account for the largest mass murders in the history of the world, (Stalin and Pol Pot) really has no business being quoted any where near as often as he has been. Just an opinion. [/QB]

Marx is one of the most misunderstood philosphers in history. And no one has ever tried his version of communism, so we don't know how it would play out. Lenin and Stalin are NOT Marx. I will say I don't think it would work and concede regarding this point, though.

What he knew of human nature was a fair amount, IMHO. He did point out a trend in how society had changed through economic revolution at that point in time. He also applied the dialectic of Hegel to sociology as opposed to just philosophy and spirituality (which is what Hegel had tied it to in his Phenomenology of the Spirit).

Moreover, Marx had some basically sound points. Religion being the opiate is oft misunderstood. His basic point there was that if life was really good for everyone, religion likely wouldn't be in demand. Thus, religion was the "opiate" (a painkiller in his day) that made life bearable for the masses of people living in poverty and subjigation. As well, and tied to this theory, he had the basic notion that "We have been philosophizing about the 'good life' for thousands of years, and why has society never acted to effect a change based on what we have proven philosophically?" A good question, it seems.

[Aelia Jusa]

Originally posted by MagiK: My question was for a rationale. Without a Religious figurehead of some sort, for what reason would a rational being (assumeing humans qualify at all) put someone ahead of self. I made no assumption of christian or pagan or any other religion, I am asking only Atheists, what their rationale is for selflessness. I did not deny that they were or could be. I hope this clears up the issue.

I'm wondering what having a religious figurehead has to do with being selfless. Is your rationale for being selfless that God said you should be? (Or the tenets of your religion.) Seems a rather empty reason to me, and certainly not a 'rationale' (ie that was thought out rationally). Cool thought experiment btw Timber [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] . What's the rationale then? Love? Reverence for life and humanity? Caring about someone besides yourself? These seem reasonably plausible to me and nothing that I need God to tell me. I don't know if this answers your question. Perhaps because I find the notion that religious people are only selfless and compassionate because they are relgious unsettling. Also, as Timber alluded to, that you seem to be begging the question that people need a rationale to be selfless.

Btw the blue is quite hard to read. I liked the aqua you were using a while back [img]smile.gif[/img]

Sorry about the color thing. A.J. you keep answering my question with questions and not really giving an answer. If you are an Atheist I would really like to know what your rationale is. My question was not posted to defend my thoughts on the subject but to seek the thoughts of others. Some other time I may decide to make a thread about that other issue.

People keep trying to read into my question. It is not that deep. Im asking Atheists what their rationale is for non-selfish acts. Is my phraseology that bad that you two can't see what Im asking or is it that you just aren't interested in exploring the issue? Either way is fine, Im just confused

Sorry if that sounded mean but Im trying to communicate and keep missing the mark somehow and don't know why.

[ 10-23-2002, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[antryg]

Timber Loftis- Since you are willing to accept philosophical proofs as fact then let me recommend Immanuel Kant. He provided 3 different philosophical proofs concerning the existance of God. I might also suggest that the promise of heaven is not an immediate gratification and is not the reason that persons become Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc.. Some embrace a faith because it provides an organized community in which to act out the good. I'm sure you don't look down on Shriners or Rotary club members because they do good as a group.
Magik- I quoted Karl Marx because the quote would be known and understood. As to philosophy I agree with John Stuart Mills and his philosophy of utitillarianism. However if I quoted from Mr. Mills nobody would know what I was talking about.

[Attalus]

Magik, I think that what you are asking is pretty much the line of reasoning that C.S. Lewis follows in his description of his conversion from atheism to Christianity. The big question, what is the source of Good in the universe? We know that animals are pretty much born without it in the wild. Why are humans the only ones that believe in the ideals of fair play, mercy, compassion, bravery, self-sacrifice, etc? Why is it that animals that associate with us on a regular basis seem to take these characterisics up? What is the source of all Good? He came to the conclusion that Good had to be embodied in a supernatural being, called for ages God. I believe that St' Thomas Aquinas follows similar reasoning, but I haven't been able to fight my way through the Summa Theologica.

Yeah Attalus I can see that. but seriously Im just interested in how Atheists rationalize their own motivations...if they do at all, which judging from the results so far...Im starting to wonder....or maybe Im just weird in that I like to know why I do things and why others do the things they do. Im not trying to start a debate saying theism is better than atheism, I am just looking for some answers without laying blame, fault, or any other adjective, pronoun or adverb whatever those are....

[skywalker]

I used to be Catholic...but I got better!

Nothing bad happened to me to turn me away from "God", I just got over it. I believe in nothing and I think I'm a healthier person because of it. And I never, ever put down anyone if they believe. Diff'ent strokes for diff'rent folks, that's all.

Mark

[skywalker]

Originally posted by MagiK: Yeah Attalus I can see that. but seriously Im just interested in how Atheists rationalize their own motivations...if they do at all, which judging from the results so far...Im starting to wonder....or maybe Im just weird in that I like to know why I do things and why others do the things they do. Im not trying to start a debate saying theism is better than atheism, I am just looking for some answers without laying blame, fault, or any other adjective, pronoun or adverb whatever those are....

So you think people are good because "God" tells them to be. Why can't I be moral, because I feel that's the right way to be?

I don't spend time rationalizing being or doing good or bad. I perfer to be liked and to be treated well by others. How can I expect good treatment if I do things that are wrong or that only benefit me?

Hey, I played Ultima 4 through to the end. My characters never did anything wrong or selfish, so I was able to complete the game. If I can do it in a game, I can do it for real. Nuff said.

Mark