More ramblings from me.

[Sir Krustin]

Originally posted by skywalker: So you think people are good because "God" tells them to be. Why can't I be moral, because I feel that's the right way to be? I don't spend time rationalizing being or doing good or bad. I perfer to be liked and to be treated well by others. How can I expect good treatment if I do things that are wrong or that only benefit me? Hey, I played Ultima 4 through to the end. My characters never did anything wrong or selfish, so I was able to complete the game. If I can do it in a game, I can do it for real. Nuff said. Mark

I think what MagiK is trying to say, is how do you determine what's right or moral without guidance from a "higher power"?

One thing that jumped right out at me when reading your post was how you assumed you knew what rightness and morality were without accepting any religious definitions.

Without a framework, a person that denies any form of religious philosophy could just as easily state that baby-killing (for example) is perfectly all right and a "good" thing to do.

Ultimately, religion is "this is good because God said so".

[Sir Krustin]

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: Being religious does not mean that you know the difference between right and wrong. Being an atheist does not mean that you don't know the difference between right and wrong.

So where do you get your definitions of right and wrong from? (This isn't a troll - it's a serious question to all the athiests/agnostics)

[Sir Krustin]

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: I don't think it is another issue. What makes any religious person commit selfless acts is the same thing that makes an atheist commit selfless acts. If you believe God makes you commit selfless acts then you must believe that God makes athiests commit selfless acts to right? (Unless you believe that athiests do not commit selfless acts at all...)

Actually I both agree and disagree, so-called religious people commit selfless acts because they be believe it's the right thing to do, so do athiests. BUT religious people believe it's the right thing to do because they have been educated by a "higher power" in what's right and what's wrong. Why do athiests believe it's right? This is a very important question to answer. It just begs the question why an athiest would disagree with the religious persons beliefs but just happen to agree on what's wrong or right.

Originally posted by Sir Krustin: quote: Originally posted by skywalker: So you think people are good because "God" tells them to be. Why can't I be moral, because I feel that's the right way to be? I don't spend time rationalizing being or doing good or bad. I perfer to be liked and to be treated well by others. How can I expect good treatment if I do things that are wrong or that only benefit me? Hey, I played Ultima 4 through to the end. My characters never did anything wrong or selfish, so I was able to complete the game. If I can do it in a game, I can do it for real. Nuff said. Mark

I think what MagiK is trying to say, is how do you determine what's right or moral without guidance from a "higher power"?

One thing that jumped right out at me when reading your post was how you assumed you knew what rightness and morality were without accepting any religious definitions.


Good luck, the best I could get for an answer was "Just because" and "It is a Universal trueism", but not real solid logic or reason to it. (though I do aprecciate the attempts that were made by some very patient people) I suppose maybe you coudl just call it a chemical instinct that nature imbued into the species to gaurentee survival or something.

Without a framework, a person that denies any form of religious philosophy could just as easily state that baby-killing (for example) is perfectly all right and a "good" thing to do.

Ultimately, religion is "this is good because God said so".[/QUOTE]

[ 10-25-2002, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[johnny]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Ar-Cunin: Most adults feel protective towards children - In the hostage situation in Moscow the children have recently been released - because (IMO) any outsider will consider the killing of children an especially barbaric act.

Good point. That whole situation in Moscow is really distressing. I hope they manage to work things out without a lot of killing. I would really like to see the Russian people finally get a peaceful, prosperous nation. [/QUOTE]Probably not in our lifetime.

[Aelia Jusa]

[quote]Originally posted by MagiK:

Originally posted by Aelia Jusa: [qb]Do you not believe in universal moral truths? Like basic human rights? There's nothing about believing that every human life is valuable that has to do with God. And exactly who or what makes them universal? There is NOTHING universal about any of this because there are many (a certain sniper comes to mind) who do not have these supposed Universal morals.

Being universal doesn't mean everyone believes in them. It means it pertains to the universe (well world, whatever). As in humans are equal - every human on earth, not just some particular humans.

Your certain sniper converted to Islam I believe. Lucky he's got that higher power to keep him on the straight and narrow.

The fact that some people don't believe/ignore/violate these moral truths doesn't make them not real or just some person's opinion. Your own moral code has provisions for going outside the boundaries of acceptable behaviour does it not? Sinning. If a moral code was defined by whether people abided by it God would have to scrap the ten commandments and get back to the drawing board.

[quote]Originally posted by MagiK:

Originally posted by Aelia Jusa: [qb]Okay here it is. Objective universal moral truths. Human life is valuable. Humans are equal. Freedom is good. The world and everything in it is valuable in and of itself. The end. And if that's not good enough then tough [img]tongue.gif[/img] Lol Ok good enough. [img]smile.gif[/img] But as I said, there is nothing universal abotu any of those things. They are all actually just an opinion. But if you dig deeper, what makes something good? why is human life good? Personal freedom is good, but what makes you give a rats bum about my freedom? I will admit maybe I there is no good answer to any of those questions.

I don't know if you're unclear on what an objective moral truth is, maybe I didn't explain it enough as I assumed it was self-explanatory. Something objective is something that is independent of humans' subjective feelings and values. Therefore these truths are the final arbiter for me as an atheist and they determine how I should behave because they are bigger than me and everyone else, and they're not influenced by what I want, or what will be best for me.

It seems to me that at the root of this question is the perception (or misperception) that there has to be someone you're accountable to for your actions - someone who will punish you if you step outside the prescripts or reward you if you don't. I know that this isn't true because I don't have anyone I'm accountable to - whether God is out there putting gold stars next to my name when I'm good I doubt very much, but if he is it doesn't make any difference to me in my behaviour. Maybe some people feel that without knowing there's someone out there judging them and that the consequences of their actions may be far-reaching and terrifying, they wouldn't be able to control themselves. But that's not true for everyone.

[Yorick]

Aelia, all humans aren't equal. That is an objective truth. Some are stronger and healthier than others. Some are smarter, faster or more expressive than others. Some are disabled, some have aptitude for certain skills more than others. Some think laterally more easily than others.

There is the spiritual idea that all humans are created equal, but that pertains to authority and the ideal, not to gifts and abilities and reality. The reality is that people are born into privilege and wealth, and others into poverty, inherited addiction and sickness.

The idea that humans are created equally is a theologican concept. It's the idea that God loves each created human individually and the same, and doesn't regard Pope Urban XI as any more special than Aelia Jusa.

Without God, we have the law of the jungle. Survival of the fittest. Law of evolution. Winner takes all. Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing.

I don't really know what I'm trying to say I just noticed this and thought I'd chip in a thought or two. DO with it what you will.

I'm leaning towards the LofA philosophy of concurring with everything.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Aelia Jusa: I know that this isn't true because I don't have anyone I'm accountable to - whether God is out there putting gold stars next to my name when I'm good I doubt very much, but if he is it doesn't make any difference to me in my behaviour. Maybe some people feel that without knowing there's someone out there judging them and that the consequences of their actions may be far-reaching and terrifying, they wouldn't be able to control themselves. But that's not true for everyone.

See I don't see how you can be objective about this because you're living in a society based on Judeo-Christian principles. Whether you're aware of it or not, your morality has been inherited from these principals, becaus eyou're a product of your society.

How are you going to be able to remove yourself from that experience?

[Aelia Jusa]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Aelia Jusa: I know that this isn't true because I don't have anyone I'm accountable to - whether God is out there putting gold stars next to my name when I'm good I doubt very much, but if he is it doesn't make any difference to me in my behaviour. Maybe some people feel that without knowing there's someone out there judging them and that the consequences of their actions may be far-reaching and terrifying, they wouldn't be able to control themselves. But that's not true for everyone.

See I don't see how you can be objective about this because you're living in a society based on Judeo-Christian principles. Whether you're aware of it or not, your morality has been inherited from these principals, becaus eyou're a product of your society.

How are you going to be able to remove yourself from that experience?[/QUOTE]My point is that my behaviour isn't affected by whether I think I'll go to heaven or not. I can easily be objective about that. Magik appears to me to not understand how anyone can be ethical if they're not accountable to someone. And I don't feel that I am. Of course, I don't live in a vacuum and of course I'm influenced by my community. I don't know how that's relevant to me not feeling that I have to account to a higher power for my actions.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Aelia Jusa: My point is that my behaviour isn't affected by whether I think I'll go to heaven or not. I can easily be objective about that. Magik appears to me to not understand how anyone can be ethical if they're not accountable to someone. And I don't feel that I am. Of course, I don't live in a vacuum and of course I'm influenced by my community. I don't know how that's relevant to me not feeling that I have to account to a higher power for my actions.

But neither is mine Aelia, and I love my God.

My point is that our morality is defined by values of the society we're raised in. Whether we react against those morals, or choose to accept them. You can't escape that reality.

You were taught right from wrong. The consequences are punishment as a child, or in school, or as an adult by society. Ridicule, derision, isolation, loss of freedoms and revenge can all be consequences of antisocial behaviour.

Just as you were taught language.

Now, it can be argued that we all posess an inner conscience, but if that is the case, how did it get there without a God placing it? Cats do not have a conscience, or snakes. Did the conscience evolve when we lost animal instinct? Is that how it worked?

Or is it the product of a higher power? Or is it something taught one human to another. Either way, you're in a pickle.