Morality in the American Presidency

[Larry_OHF]

quote:

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Originally posted by jabidas:
Frankly Larry its very easy to hide how much you eat by burying your shit, and with an organisation as capable as the C.I.A its very easy to bury things. Im not attacking the american people just the government.

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Nice metaphore.

Now, why waste time fussing about the U.S. govt., when there are worse govts.?
Why does it always have to be just ours?

I can use your metaphore to illustrate that every other country (except Denmark) does the exact same thing...bury shit.I already said that we were #17. How many more countries are below us in corruptiveness?

[jabidas]

Because the US govt is probably top of the list in reality, that and the US supports large numbers of these vindictive little regimes. Take Usbekestan (spelling) the country adjacent country to Afghanistan, they are now US aided because of their proximity to the war and they are basicaly stalinist russia in the 1930-40s, absolute violations of human rights all over the place, gulags, the works. But hey its conveniant for the US at the moment. Do I need to take out my history books for more detailed examples?

To get back to the starting point, its very easy for countrys to hide the violations of human rights but let me give you a leeetle few facts from Amnesty international which has been proved. Most Torture equipment is made in the US, and Europe to a lesser extent, the israeli secret service tortureres are trained in the US, Let me search for the link for a bit, will return later.

[Larry_OHF]

quote:

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Originally posted by jabidas:
Because the US govt is probably top of the list in reality.
...Do I need to take out my history books for more detailed examples?

Most Torture equipment is made in the US, and Europe to a lesser extent, the israeli secret service tortureres are trained in the US, Let me search for the link for a bit, will return later.

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And Ireland is the worst country in the world for Child and Spouse abuse...So, why don't we start a thread about how important the family is and how men should not beat up on their wives and children, which is a terrible crime to me. What about families who sale their children at early ages into sweat shops, where they are enlsaved to work. Yep, it happens. That way, those countries can undersale their competitors in other countries. But we have govt. laws which prevent such "market dumping" in our country. Other countries do not...they just care about buying the cheapest material,(that which is made by enslaved children).

For every bad thing you throw at me for reasons agasint the U.S...I have one for another country. Where will this get either of us?
The only reason I am posting to begin with is because I am waiting for people to come online in the game forum...I am hooked on RPGs [img]smile.gif[/img]

[jabidas]

Sure Larry Ireland has had some truly hideous things happen I dont try to pretend it hasnt but this isnt about namecalling the thread was about US morality, but Ill take it a step further, in the Irish Cival war when either side took prisoners they frequently tied them around an explosive and set it off. Back before in the sixties and before then the country let the catholic church run the foster homes and they carried out child abuse on an industrial scale, the list could go on.

But you didnt answer my point. The US government has, does and will continue to impose their wills on other countrys. Frequently its just economics but hey I suppose its only towelheads and other non white middleaged voters so who cares. But I suppose americans know sod all about what their government does. They dont care about elected governments torn down, left wing peoples crushed or anything that dosnt help the dollar.

[Lord of Alcohol]

Things have gotten a bit off track from the original subect havent they? We went from Jimmy Carter to America is evil. So I will give my opinion of Jimmy Carter- I think he was NOT a good President. While he did somehow win the election he never gained the full confidence of the people. I fully realise he meant well but that is not what is required to be a President of a country. He commanded a nuclear submarine, but could not command a nation. Politics dont allow nice guys. The Iran situation showed that. My dad was in Iran right before the hostages were taken ( he came home for christmas-was told not to go back). Carter was completely indesisive. I have to say he is a great AFTER_President, but he was not a good President while in office

[jabidas]

I pulled this from Amnesty international, if you want to read more, well its not exactly a very hard site to find is it. I admit its a brutal read but think about it, this didnt exactly happen such a very long time ago.

School of the Americas
During the 30-year civil conflict in Guatemala tens of thousands
of people were tortured,killed or “disappeared ” at the hands of
government security forces or paramilitaries.Although her
torturers have never been identified,the story of Sister Dianna
Ortiz reflects many of the reports received of the USA ’s role in
facilitating human rights violations.Sister Ortiz,a US citizen,
worked in San Miguel Acatán,a poor rural area of Guatemala,
teaching Mayan children how to read.She had received
numerous death threats because of her work.She was abducted
in November 1989.
“I was abducted from the back yard of the Posada de Belén
retreat centre in Antigua by members of the Guatemalan
security forces.They took me to a clandestine prison
where I was tortured and raped repeatedly.My back and
chest were burned more than 111 times with cigarettes.I
was lowered into an open pit packed with human bodies —
bodies of children,women,and men,some decapitated,
some lying face up and caked with blood,some dead,some
alive — and all swarming with rats..
“After hours of torture,I was returned to the room
where the interrogation initially occurred.In this room I
met Alejandro,a tall man of light complexion.As my tor-
turers began to rape me again,they said to him,
‘Alejandro,come and have some fun.’ They referred to him
as their ‘boss ’.Alejandro cursed in unmistakable American
English and ordered them to stop,since I was a North
American nun and my disappearance had become public...
“Alejandro professed that he was concerned about the
people of Guatemala and consequently was working to
liberate them from communism.He kept telling me in his
broken Spanish that he was sorry about what happened
to me...I asked him what would happen to the other
people I saw tortured.At this point,he switched to dis-
tinct,American English.He told me not to concern myself
with them...”
Alejandro ’s identity has never been fully confirmed.However,
data obtained during the 1990s confirmed that the US Central
Intelligence Agency (CIA)had aided Guatemala ’s military forces
by reinforcing their national intelligence apparatus and training
the officer corps in brutal counter-insurgency techniques as
early as the 1960s.The Historical Clarification Commission,44
subsequently established in Guatemala to investigate the human
rights abuses committed during the civil conflict,concluded:
“Whilst anti-communism,promoted by the United States
within the framework of its foreign policy,received firm
support from right-wing political parties and from vari-
ous other powerful actors in Guatemala,the United
States demonstrated that it was willing to provide sup-
port for strong military regimes in its strategic backyard.
In the case of Guatemala,military assistance was directed
towards reinforcing the national intelligence apparatus
and for training the officer corps in counterinsurgency
techniques,key factors which had significant bearing on
human rights violations during the armed confrontation.”
In a 1991 civil suit,a US court found former Guatemalan Defence
Minister General Héctor Gramajo responsible for the kidnap and
rape of Sister Ortiz.General Gramajo is one of literally hundreds
of graduates of the notorious School of the Americas (SOA)in
the USA who have been implicated in human rights violations in
various countries in Latin America.
The SOA,located in Fort Benning,Georgia,is the best known
US military training facility,but it is only one of more than 150
centres in the USA and abroad where foreign officers are
trained.In September 1996 the US Department of Defense
released evidence that the SOA had used so-called “intelligence
training manuals ” between 1982 and 1991 that advocated
execution,torture,beatings and blackmail.The manuals,written
in Spanish,were used to train thousands of Latin American
security force agents.Copies of these manuals were distributed
in Colombia,Ecuador,El Salvador,Guatemala and Peru.
It appears that the manuals had belatedly been discovered
through internal review processes in 1991.Relevant
congressional committees were notified of the discovery in 1991,
but the manuals ’ existence was not made public at that time..In
fact,when a campaign by US non-governmental organizations —
SOA Watch — publicized the existence of the manuals in July
1996,the official spokesman at the SOA denied that such
manuals had ever been used.The Pentagon released copies of
the manuals two months later,in September 1996.
Several governmental investigations have found that,while
the manuals contained improper material,no US laws were
broken in the preparation,distribution and use of these materials.
As a result no one has been held accountable for their development
and use.Indeed US officials refused to discipline those responsible
for producing or using these manuals on the grounds that there was
no “deliberate attempt to violate ” US policy..


What a great policeman of the world eh?

[Larry_OHF]

I beleive that information to be false.
If any of it is true, any one part of it...then the guilty party was acting own his/her own and not under the command of the govt.

Many people can make a stupid error and make it look like they were under guidance of the main body that they fall under.

[Sir Taliesin]

I'm not sure that information was false. We have done some pretty terrible things in Central America. We are not innocent, but then as Larry pointed out neither is anyone else. At some point this crap of supporting dictators has to stop. And if you look at the US record over the last twenty years, that type of stuff as abatted somewhat. Many times the US "encourages" Dictators to move on and set up a democratic government. Haiti is a prime example. We were able to remove a Dictator peacefully (but a the point of a gun) out of power and install a democratically controlled government. One that is socialist in nature, I might add. Another country that we "eased a dictator out of was Panama" (that was truely at the point of a gun!!!). Panama is now a democracy. The Phillipines also come to mind as well. that was a case where we had supported a dictator, but we withdrew our support once the people of the Phillipines decided to throw him out. We could have easily kept him in power had we wanted to. There are still some governments that we tolerate out there (Guatamaula being one of them). Hopefully one of these days we'll stop supporting them as well.

Back to the original subject though. Jimmy Carter has done a Primo job since he left office (he even managed to become a somewhat decent carpenter) with the things this counrty has asked him to do. I think Carter was the most honest and moral president this country has seen in a long time, but he was a terrible president.

I have to say that his presidency set the tone of my political mindset. When he was elected, there should have been no problem with his agenda. The Democrats controlled everything; the White House and both Houses of Congress. But the Democratic leaders in Washington weren't going to let some "low-life peanut farmer" come in there and tell them how to run the country. It's a shame when the US President can't get his own party to back him up. The Democratic leadership in Washington refused to back him up. I'll never forget that and it has soured me on the Democrats ever since.

I don't think leaders have to be moral or ethical to lead. But it sure helps! Someone also said that only leaders that win wars are considered great. Well that's true. But usually that is the greatest challenge a country faces. Not always, but usually. Thnaks to all of you that hung in there til the end of my post. It was rather long and rambling.

[Larry_OHF]

I think of Columbia, where a friend of mine is from. She tells me of the wars that go on down there, and makes me realize how glad I am to have never been born in such a place. That is why she is here, now. She was afraid that she would be raped and killed by one of those crazy men in the jungles, which was a few miles from her home. She came to the US for refuge.
Another friend of mine os from Nicaragua. He was a military weapons specialist, but when they lost the war to whoever was attacking them, he had to leave his family and live here to escaope being put to death by the group that now control his country. His son grew up, fatherless, then moved to Winston-Salem, to find his father after so many years. It was a very emotional reunion.

[Barry the Sprout]

quote:

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Originally posted by Larry_OHF:

I beleive that information to be false.
If any of it is true, any one part of it...then the guilty party was acting own his/her own and not under the command of the govt.

Many people can make a stupid error and make it look like they were under guidance of the main body that they fall under.

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Larry the School of the Americas is exremely well documented fact. People are trained for covert operations so that the US can influence without legally being responsible for the consequences. They support the Contras in Nicuragua and the Cuban American National Foundation, neither of which are particularly shy about their activities.

But Britain is hardly innocent. Did you know that we have been taken to the European Court on Human Rights more times than Turkey... shameful but true. What I am trying to say is that America is not any more deserving of praise on the human rights issue than most countries. But they hide it well, just like we used to.