Science- Religion or Not?

[250]

well, say, the modern medical reserchs conduct medicines that can cure "depression". you see, the scientists, in this case doctors, believe that depression is something to be cured, and with scientific reserch's help, they can come up with medicine that can magically take away depression from a "patient".

the "patient" comes back to work in a zombie like state due to the repression effect. the chemical drug forcefully replaces a natural process that a person has to go through, which I believe it is in some way religious because of the spiritual transformation.

surely it is using science in a wrong way, nevertheless it is science. I cannot really compare science to religion, because religion is such a broad topic and my knowledge is humble and insufficient, so I can only relate to the limitations of science.

honestly telling you, I dont think science and religion are the same at their cores. one works to advance human understanding, and another humbles us and reminds us our place in the grand theme of God or Goddess.

and Hugh, say, you are a religious scientist, then tell me how you be christian while being a scientist at the same time?

scientific studies require evidence, proof, numbers, an accurate calculation etc. forgive me, but how much does God weigh? is it possible to answer in scientific terms? of course, this question is the manifestion of the intelligence of my intellect-self, and it cannot beat the wit of soul. I am sure you can answer this in a soulful way. then again, it proves that religion is not entirely competible with science.

[ 06-20-2002, 01:53 AM: Message edited by: 250 ]

[Yorick]

Leo, we are multi facetted beings. Faced with problems that require differing solutions we are able to change our modus operandi.

A Christian scientist applys scientific gathering of evidence for information of/from the physical realm, and applys faith to matters of God that require it.

If, as a Christian theologian I want to understand the context of an aspect of Christs ministry, I may take the scientific approach and go to Israel, look at the land, the ruins and the people. I may consult various source materials - the bible and supporting texts, and gather the information physically.

If I want to make my relationship with God stronger, then I need to spend time praying and listening. Viewing aspects of creation, having fellowship with other christians, hanging out with God. THe same as I would if I wanted any relationship to grow. Spend time with the person involved.

This is what I mean when I say Christianity is a relationship, but Theology a science. Differing ways to increase understanding of the same source.

[theifprowess]

cerek you say god transends laws of pyhsical science?how do you create something outta nothing?does coal turn into a diamond over time cause god willed it? no its scientific fact that over many years carbonization causes coal to turn into diamonds. men back in 3000 years ago were of average hieght of 4 feet tall man was tiny. why after so many years the average height of man raise up to almost 6 feet? evolution. i do believe we evolved from an ape-like state, maybe not actual apes but similar.

yes i do believe that religion and the right to thought brings chaos to order.we feel we are above everything else and because we were "givin" the right to thought that we are superior. do you see the common animal trying to wipe its own species out of existance? no they dont have the thought that they are superior but of the same. sure males fight for dominance to an "area" but they dont kill each other over it. i.e. rams will fight each other for territory. when one realizes that he is weaker and less dominate he leaves or moves on. doesnt come back later and bust a cap in his azz.


and sports now that we are on that subject. i seem to recall kobe and shaq to be very ill tempered with each other and couldnt seem to play ball well with each other. each wanted the spotlight. could win a championship for 2 years straight. then god (jackson) stepped in taught kobe how to share the ball and the limelight with shaq, and taught shaq to work in his weak areas to improve his game. next thing you know you got 2 star players and three championships later.why couldnt they do that before?didnt god grant them the Incredible "ability" to play basketball? no it took one man who knew how to play the game and hone their abilities and to work on them.

and as far as ww2 is considered it was based on religion. hitler and the rest of the non jewish germans where in poverty and the jews werent. why was that? they had an answer they might not be rich but they can take it from them cause they are superior in fighting sense and there was nothing the jews could do about it.the american civil war was about slavery and its morality issues and what god feels is morally correct about the issue.men should be treated equally. but anyways not talking about each and every war lets talk about war intails. war is caused because of to conflicting sides of interest or "beliefs". a belief that goes against religion. "though shalt not kill" "honor thy neighbor". its also a sin to start a war. most wars are based on greed. is that not a cardinal sin? if we are so in tune with religion why would we allow wars to happen. dont we know its morally wrong to kill fellow man? but we have people of all religions more than willing to fight to protect "their land". i will not join in the military to fight in a war cause i believe it is morally wrong to kill a man. but when it comes to war both sides feel they are each morally wrong for their belief as to why they are fighting that war.

one more note on war, desert storm was that religiously motivated? sure all of you would say no. that it was in U.S. interest to keep oil in the right hands, no. we didnt want the oil to be under control of terrorist extremist groups such as suddam hussien. it is religions way to control the power.the united states would not want to have to buy oil from a terrorist state like that because the U.S. knows what iraqis stand for. granted kuwait doesnt much like the U.S. for other reasons as well . but they arent trying to kill americans either.


do you disagree with hitlers views? why or why not? he felt that what he was doing was an answer to his peoples suffering. is he dumb for "thinking" like that?i would say that that man was pretty hell bent on destruction and genoside based on a belief. can you name one none beleiver of god that is or was anywhere near as hellbent as he was or any other person like him?and serial killers have no remorse for their actions? i dont buy that. why does a man rape a woman or child? cause he "knows" he has power over them and takes advantage over them. and lets not forget the people who claim god tells them to kill people cause they dont follow his rules. are they morally sound? and fighting a war. is a soldier morally sound for killing another man? it is immoral to kill a man no matter what the cause or reason is. so is a soldier not of sound mind. they are just adherering to their own code of conduct their country has instilled in them.

and finally about changing faiths. why are there so many different forms of christianity? buddism and jewdism both have one set of rules or conduct to follow. why is it that man has the right to change and warp christianity around to his own personal liking. if they had a methodist style jewish religion would you then decide to switch because it has or is more adhered to what YOU want to believe? why dont you believe in original christianity? but a parsect of it, an offshoot. would it not be to your total belief system by following christianities main beliefs?

[Yorick]

Originally posted by theifprowess: cerek you say god transends laws of pyhsical science?how do you create something outta nothing?does coal turn into a diamond over time cause god willed it?

Yep.

Saying the Creator Awareness that created everything cannot possibly create from nothing because a human cannot create ex-nihlo is akin to a Van Gough painting deciding Van Gough himself mustn't be able to walk because it can't.

Think about what you're saying. How can human limitations apply to whatever it is that created everything? It's a miracle he or it even bothers communicating with, let alone loving or dying for us.

He/it is so beyond human comprehension, the only things even Christians can know about God are what he chooses to reveal.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by theifprowess: and finally about changing faiths. why are there so many different forms of christianity? buddism and jewdism both have one set of rules or conduct to follow. why is it that man has the right to change and warp christianity around to his own personal liking. if they had a methodist style jewish religion would you then decide to switch because it has or is more adhered to what YOU want to believe? why dont you believe in original christianity? but a parsect of it, an offshoot. would it not be to your total belief system by following christianities main beliefs?

Eh?

Branches of Judaism include Rabinic, Sephardim, Ashkenazim, Kabbala, Hasidism, Haskala, Orthodix, Reform, Conserative, Zionism, Sephardim, Orthodox, Messianic.

Branches of Buddhism include Mahayana, Theravada and Vajrayana. PLUS Buddhism has incorporated Taoism and Confucianism to form the Chinese religion.

Speaking about a "Methodist Jewish sect" is simply bizzarre. If they were Methodist Jews they would be Christian.... (Messianic Jews accept the messiah)

As far as Christianity goes, the new denominations are vital. Just as a relationship starts to have problems when we "go through the motions" and make a ritual out of that which should be spontaneous, so it is with the [i]relationship with Christ. [i]

[250]

I see, Yorick, in that case, I agree with you.

[catzenpewters]

I see science and religion as symbiotic. If there's a god, he created science. We need both science and faith. Here's a quote that I think says it very well:

"Religion and science are the two wings upon which man's intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of materialism."

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Calaethis Dragonsbane: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Calaethis Dragonsbane: Is that right... so it is NOT possible for a christian to 'fall'... say, commit an unforgivable sin. Nothing is certain, in a moment of weakness, you *could* do something you may regret `till the end of your days, and maybe beyond... never think for one moment you are completly safe. Sin is always there... The way I understand my religious instructors in the Catholic church, there is no such thing as an unforgivable sin. In the light of Divine grace, a truely repentent person may be forgiven for any transgression. The key here is that only God knows if the person is truly repentent.

If I remember correctly; theres a reference in the bible somewhere that goes something like this... 'may speak out agaisnt the son of man, even the father, but let no one speak out against the holy spirit, for that is unforgivable' it went SOMETHING like that, I know that isnt the corret wording, but thats the gist of it...[/QUOTE]I beleive the Bible says blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, is not forgivable. Exactly what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is I don't know for sure.

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Gabriel:

Numbers and formulers is Phyics and such only one arm of science. Science does appreciate the mysteries of life but choose to seek an explaintion. Religion is matter to be taught for without it teaching all regilion will die. It also tries to explain mysterys but does so too often by ruling them acts of god then seeking real answers.[/QUOTE]

But Gabriel there are Christian scientists. I was a Christian studying Sociology before I was a musician. Believing there is someone behind everything, doesn't meant you don't want to know how it's done. I for one am fascinated by discoveries of sulfur eating beings at the bottom of the ocean (living near cracks in the ocean floor). There are Christians who believe in evolution as well. They just believe God directed it. As I have said again and again, Science and religion are not mutually exclusive. Has anyone considered these words? Conscience Omniscience Prescience Note the word constructions? [/QB]

Ah, yes Yorrick but I did not state there was not christian scientists or Seik, arab, jew, mulisum, buddist, tao, hindu, shinto, etc for that matter either. But did suggest that people studding tend pass off act of god as an answer instead of finding another one (perhaps correct one). A ideal that your comment that some people believe that god driected evolution has backed up.

One a side not the creatures on the sea floor do not eixst be eating sulpher, but by eating creatures that use in chimosynthesis, a process not unlike the photosynthesis of surface algea. Also these life forms mostly exist near the black smokers which are volonic vents (they look like min-voloancs) but a ecosystem not unlike it has been found in caves in....one of the old soviet countries (Can't remember the name.)

[ 06-20-2002, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Gabriel ]

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Calaethis Dragonsbane: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Nothing is really cut and dried. All a Christian knows is where THEY are going, not where anyone else is going. "Do not judge lest you be judged. " It's a scarey thing to try and tell another they are going to hell, assuming hell is an actual place and not a state of nonexistence. Is that right... so it is NOT possible for a christian to 'fall'... say, commit an unforgivable sin. Nothing is certain, in a moment of weakness, you *could* do something you may regret `till the end of your days, and maybe beyond... never think for one moment you are completly safe. Sin is always there...

I beleive it is posible for a Christian to 'fall', if it wasn't what would be the purpose of Paul admonising(sp?) so many of the early churches to be sure to "walk in a manner worthy of their calling"
or Paul's statment about how can we who have died to sin continue to walk in it, may it never be! Or shall we continue to sin that grace may abound! (paraphised by me) Or the statment about Satan being a roaring Lion roaming around seeking to devour anyone He can. (again parphrased by me) A statment made to Christians, the Saved, if they could not fall then why should they be warry of Satan. Doing something you reget until the end of your days doen't mean it's unforgiveable. It means you have a conscience, and have remorse for your actions, or else you wouldn't regret the action.
You're right sin is always there.

[ 06-20-2002, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]