Science- Religion or Not?

[Calaethis Dragonsbane]

Originally posted by Leonis: quote: Originally posted by Calaethis Dragonsbane: does it truly matter? just let it go, ok? im not really in the mood for a religious debate right now.

No worries. [/QUOTE]good . I'd be happy to have a debate some other time... just not right now. lol; save it for a rainy day, eh?

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by theifprowess: i believe in myself i do not believe there ever was a god nor will there ever be a god. can god die? according to religion no he cant. but according to science all thing have an expected life time. there is no VIRGIN mary just some women if any that didnt want daddy to know she was messin with one of the sheep herders. science has proven that people can not have an emaculate conception.

Aaaah.....but God transcends the laws of physical science. After all, He created this world and everything in it, including the laws of "science" that these creations conform to. Therefore, He is above the laws of science.

religion i feel is what brings disorder and chaos to this world. its seperates people on beliefs and biases. people do not have faith in themselves. they put faith and belief above themselves. does a man catch a football and bring it into the endzone because god helped him or willed him? no. he has his own individual talents he fails to see himself.

So you believe that - if there were NO religion or belief in a higher being or power - then there would be no chaos or disorder? That, if left to his own devices, man would instinctively get along with his neighbor and they would both automatically work for the betterment of each other?

AFA the football player, where does his talent derive from? He can control and improve SOME aspects of his talent - but not all. There are many talented quarterbacks in the game, but few have ever had the natural talent and savvy of Joe Montana. I don't think any other QB can match Joe's record for last-drive comeback wins.
In the NBA, we now have Kobe Bryant and Shaq. There are many players who have worked as hard - if not harder - to hone their abilities, but Shaq and Kobe are literally heads above the rest of the league in pure physical talent. Again, where does that exceptional physical skill come from? They are born with it. Therefore, it is reasonable for them to give credit to their Creator for their physical gifts.

and if it werent for religion most if not all wars in the world would have never happened or occured.

Please be wary of broad generalizations.

World War I - Started by the assassination of a French diplomat/ambassodor. (I think he was French anyway - but may be wrong).

World War II - Started by Hitler's obssession to return Germany to the status of a World Power. The "religious genocide" of the Jews didn't occur until Germany had already invaded Poland, Austria, and other surrounding countries. It was the most heinous aspect of WWII, but not the cause of it.

Korea and Vietnam - Started by communist gov'ts that controlled the northern part of those countries in an attempt to overthrow their democratic counterparts in the southern section.

American Civil War - began when Confederate soldiers finally fired upon northern ships that had been sent by Abraham Lincoln to prevent southern states from seceding from the union (which they had a Constitutional right to do, BTW....that's right, Lincoln actually violated the Constitution by preventing the South from seceding). The slavery issue wasn't even brought up until close to the wars end when support in the North was beginning to wane.

it takes a few intelligent people to show the rest of the "dumb" world that they are wrong.

I appreciate your effort, but so far, you have failed to convince me of my ignorance.

do you think if there was a god he would have willed man to be as destructive as he is?

An excellent point. You are absolutely correct. God gave Man free will and it is Man's will (not God's) that has caused so much destruction.

a person who doesnt believe in god has a better sense of what is right and what is wrong. they arent as hell bent and destructive and someone who does believe in god.

Sorry, thiefprowess, but this is a completely erroneous statement. It has been scientifically proven that serial killers have no moral concept of right and wrong. They feel NO REMORSE whatsoever for the pain and suffering they inflict on their victims and thier families. They see nothing wrong with their actions, because they are adhering to their own, personal code of conduct.

You apparantly have a strong dislike for religious beliefs and people of faith. Very well...that is your choice and I respect that.

All I ask is that you treat my views with the same respect.

one last thing to note.did you pick your religion or did your parents bring you into it ? if so say if you were catholic, would your parents get upset if you converted to jewdism or buddist? why or why not?

That's a fair question. I WAS raised in a Christian home (Baptist to be specific). I've attended Baptist, Methodist, and Pentacostal churches in my search for faith.

I would never convert to the Jewish or Buddhist faith because I disagree with some important core beliefs. I have conducted my own search for God and He has revealed Himself to me in a convincing manner. Therefore, there is no reason for me to consider a different theology.

Yes, my parents would be greatly saddened if I DID choose to convert to a non-Christian religion. That is because they believe, like I do, that God is our Heavenly Father and that Jesus Christ is His son - who died on the cross so that MY sins might be forgiven. By converting to another religion, I would be rejecting that Holy Gift. They wouldn't stop me from doing it, but they would be upset by my choice.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by theifprowess: IMO i believe in myself i do not believe there ever was a god nor will there ever be a god. can god die? according to religion no he cant. but according to science all thing have an expected life time. there is no VIRGIN mary just some women if any that didnt want daddy to know she was messin with one of the sheep herders. science has proven that people can not have an emaculate conception. only asexually animals such as some frogs have the ability to birth on their own. and thats because it is proven that they have both sex organs.(now hypothetically per say if miss mary did have a asexually child, her and the baby would have been burned as witches for herecy and the ability to produce babies unnaturally). back then mentality speaking there. religion i feel is what brings disorder and chaos to this world. its seperates people on beliefs and biases. people do not have faith in themselves. they put faith and belief above themselves. does a man catch a football and bring it into the endzone because god helped him or willed him? no. he has his own individual talents he fails to see himself. and if it werent for religion most if not all wars in the world would have never happened or occured. men have this sense that since we have the inept ability to understand and to learn more than the common animal does that makes us better. we were choosen for a higher purpose. god must have choose us to preach his name. it takes a few intelligent people to show the rest of the "dumb" world that they are wrong. and time and time again these smart people have proven the disproved. the world is not FLAT the sun or shining ball in the sky doesnt circle us but we circle it. electricity and or lightning isnt the hand of "god" smitting man for being sinnful but charged electrons and magnetism. the ground doesnt shake because god is mad at fellow man but because of shifting in techtonic plates. we are animals. we dont like to think of ourselves as animals cause we use more of our brain and our ability to think is enhanced.women bitch at men that men are dogs. well i am proud to say like every other male ANIMAL out there that it is our male instincts that drive us to sleep arround or in animallistic sence breed. it is a law of nature that male animals spread their seed not for fun but for the assurance of the survival of their species. we just somehow make fun of it. do you think if there was a god he would have willed man to be as destructive as he is? i know not all religions beleive in a god per say but a man of great influence. hell allah has successfully got an entire race of people to believe that eating pork is dirty cause a pig eats its own sh*t. they also believe that if they die for a good cause they get to goto paradise and are blessed with 70 virgins. hell maybe the families of those victims of the twin towers attacks will feel better knowing that the men that hijacked those planes went to a better place cause allah willed it. hell i find it funny that the world still holds a grudge against the jews. because they were the ones that according to history killed jesus christ. now did every jewish man and women kill jesus christ. or did one man of certain religious pretext kill jesus. how would the world respond if jesus was not killed by jewish descent rather christian.not possible right? why would we kill our own kindred? yet we do it constantly in the streets of our cities. goto prison and ask every cellmate if they believe in god. if they do why would they commit crimes against humanity like that if they are in touch with religion like that. people who do not beleive there is a god and or higher person believe in their self respecting abilities and see people for what they are. ask those same people in prison and you will find almost not one of them does not believe in god. a person who doesnt believe in god has a better sense of what is right and what is wrong. they arent as hell bent and destructive and someone who does believe in god.in the end it wont be the people who dont believe in god that brings this world down but the very people who do believe in god that will destroy this earth. thats why i would pick science over religion science can prove it. religion you have to believe in it. and i already believe in myself and my abilities to live out my life as the days go by. one last thing to note.did you pick your religion or did your parents bring you into it ? if so say if you were catholic, would your parents get upset if you converted to jewdism or buddist? why or why not?

The Bible says the world is round. Scientists and mariners of the day said the world was flat.

Your statement about most of the wars never happening is ure speculation. You provide no facts to suport such a generalised statement.

I have detailed before the number of Singaporean Buddhists I witnessed convert to Christianity in one night, (1756) and that Children are beaten and kicked out of home when they leave Buddhism for Christ. This was verified by Lifetime, a Singaporean here.

Also, who holds prejudice against Jews? I don't know any Christians that do. Jesus was a Jew. The early church consisted almost entirely of Jews. I have Messianic Jewish friends in my church. I work for Jews. I have been mistaken for a Jew here in New York.

"In Christ there is no Jew nor Gentile"

Don't know where you're getting your information.

Regarding the twin towers everyone seems to use that to justify their own agenda. Those who want to criticise America use it as proof that America caused the attack. Now here you are citing religion is the cause. Well which is it?

There are seven million Muslims in the United Staes. Are they all attacking Churches and Synagogues? Is Indonesia, the largest Islamic nation attacking Australia, a sport deifying nation for glorifying human achievement? You are talking about minoritys. Wahabism, the strand the highjackers followed is an extremist interpretation of Islam.

But why am I defending Islam? Islam is totally different to Christianity. How can you lump opposite beliefs into the one basket?

Do we do this with political ideologies?

Oh yes, the Democrats and the Nazis are both responsible for World War II. Heck, both the Capitalists and Greenies are responsible for the degradation of the planet. And the Monarchist English and Republican Americans are both responsible for the revolution.

Or are they?

So regarding wars, was the Falklands based on religion? Was Genghis Khan a religious evangelist? Did the English want to incite the boxer rebellion in China because they loved Christ? Did Hussein invade Kuwait because Allah told him to? Did the Lombards invde Italy because they wanted to get a good view of the Vatican? Did Spain invade South America to convert everyone or to GET THE SILVER THERE.
.

[DeSoya]

Respectfully, Yorick, I did read the previous posts. I was asking for clarification. What I wanted to know is where do math and physics fit into your scheme? It matters not. I'll concede the point that my statements about Theology were a bit misplaced. They didn't come out how I wanted them to. Such are the vagaries of my sieve-like short term memory. [img]smile.gif[/img]

If we follow the dictionary definitions we get the following comparison:

re·li·gion
n.

1.
a.Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b.A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2.The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3.A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4.A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

sci·ence
n.

1.
a.The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of
phenomena.
b.Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
c.Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.
2.Methodological activity, discipline, or study: "I've got packing a suitcase down to a science."
3.An activity that appears to require study and method: the science of purchasing.
4.Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.
5.Science Christian Science.

Both these came off of Dictionary.com and so are from the American Heiritage Dictionary. From reading both of these carefully I see how Religion could be practiced in a science like manner but still fail to see how Science is a religion except perhaps in an extreme sense of the fourth definition of religion. There is no place for such things as: "Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe." God cannot be axiomated and so cannot be hypothesised or theorized. That's part of the mystery of God (to me at least). And inasmuch a creator or what not should be ignored when doing science lest it cloud the judgement of the scientist. There have been many theories that were wrong that have been persued over the years because people's ambitions or beliefs clouded their judgment. I was poking around on the web looking for a famous math proof that supposedly showed the existance of God. Couldn't find it so my poor explanation will have to do. The man's proof was that only God could create something out of nothing and presented a series of squences that summed a bunch of zeros (1 + (-1)). Unfortunetly his logic was incorrect. He couldn't see this because he was looking for proof of God. Isn't faith enough?

I'll wrap this up by reiterating that Science is not Religion and should never be. There are those of us who seemingly worship technology, the unholy bastard offspring of war and science research, and there are those who eschew the holy and the divine in favor facts and theorems but the practice of science should remain inviolate.

As for the subject of war and religion. I respectfully withdraw myself from this discussion. I am afraid that I might go to the point of being disrespectful and rude and that's not the way I would ever want to be online. If ever I deserve to be punched because of my words I want to be punched.

DeSoya

[DeSoya]

Please be wary of broad generalizations. World War I - Started by the assassination of a French diplomat/ambassodor. (I think he was French anyway - but may be wrong). World War II - Started by Hitler's obssession to return Germany to the status of a World Power. The "religious genocide" of the Jews didn't occur until Germany had already invaded Poland, Austria, and other surrounding countries. It was the most heinous aspect of WWII, but not the cause of it.

In WWI it was a Austrian/Hungarian duke of Hapsburg descent. WWII resulted from WWI.

Apparently Hitler wasn't too far out of line with his actions according to the rest of Europe. A joke goes something like this: Had you told anyone in Europe in 1910 that in 30 years 6 million Jews would be systematically prosecuted and killed the answer would be "Well... Anything can happen in France."

Good points for the most part tho', Cerek. Just thought I'd correct the origin of the Duke guy. [img]smile.gif[/img]

DeSoya

[Calaethis Dragonsbane]

maybe Im being thick, but I simly dont see the humor. its *not* funny.

[250]

well, science does not appreciate the mysteries of human lives. what it concerns is numbers and formulers. the exact amount of carbont react with equal its amount of oxygen will result that much CO2 (dont bother to correct me on the word choices. I assure you I learnt your college chemistry shit at 9th grade). but anyways, religion teachs a way of life, it is not just a subject to be studied or taught. religion does not question the truth of unknown, instead religion includes that as mystery, as it is a inevitable experience of our existence.

defy that mystery, you lose the spiritual life, which is a soul's essential need. thats the difference between religion and science, as I see it.

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by 250: well, science does not appreciate the mysteries of human lives. what it concerns is numbers and formulers. the exact amount of carbont react with equal its amount of oxygen will result that much CO2 (dont bother to correct me on the word choices. I assure you I learnt your college chemistry shit at 9th grade). but anyways, religion teachs a way of life, it is not just a subject to be studied or taught. religion does not question the truth of unknown, instead religion includes that as mystery, as it is a inevitable experience of our existence. defy that mystery, you lose the spiritual life, which is a soul's essential need. thats the difference between religion and science, as I see it.

Numbers and formulers is Phyics and such only one arm of science. Science does appreciate the mysteries of life but choose to seek an explaintion. Religion is matter to be taught for without it teaching all regilion will die. It also tries to explain mysterys but does so too often by ruling them acts of god then seeking real answers.

[250]

isnt physics science?

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Gabriel: quote: Originally posted by 250: well, science does not appreciate the mysteries of human lives. what it concerns is numbers and formulers. the exact amount of carbont react with equal its amount of oxygen will result that much CO2 (dont bother to correct me on the word choices. I assure you I learnt your college chemistry shit at 9th grade). but anyways, religion teachs a way of life, it is not just a subject to be studied or taught. religion does not question the truth of unknown, instead religion includes that as mystery, as it is a inevitable experience of our existence. defy that mystery, you lose the spiritual life, which is a soul's essential need. thats the difference between religion and science, as I see it.

Numbers and formulers is Phyics and such only one arm of science. Science does appreciate the mysteries of life but choose to seek an explaintion. Religion is matter to be taught for without it teaching all regilion will die. It also tries to explain mysterys but does so too often by ruling them acts of god then seeking real answers.[/QUOTE]But Gabriel there are Christian scientists. I was a Christian studying Sociology before I was a musician. Believing there is someone behind everything, doesn't meant you don't want to know how it's done.

I for one am fascinated by discoveries of sulfur eating beings at the bottom of the ocean (living near cracks in the ocean floor). There are Christians who believe in evolution as well. They just believe God directed it.

As I have said again and again, Science and religion are not mutually exclusive.

Has anyone considered these words?

Conscience
Omniscience
Prescience

Note the word constructions?