Is it France or Vichy France we have today?

[Wutang]

Sorry but had to bring this up but anyone else find it interesting that while France has no problems standing firm against British and Americans, they seem to bend over backwards to appease dictators and despots?

For those that don't know or remember Vichy france during WWII, The Vichy govt gladly cooperated with the Germans and Japanese conquerers while resisting efforts against the Americans and Brits.

Vichy France also went overboard making sure it deported all the Jews to extermination camps to appease Hitler. Something I know that Israel hasn't forgotten. I mean the Italians even under Mussolini went to great lengths to protect the Jews. Not so with Vichy France.

So now I'm wondering what kind of France are we dealing with today. They've always been contrarian to any US policies involving military action.

The more I see what France is doing today, the more I am ashamed that we helped them liberate their country back in WWII.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Wutang: The more I see what France is doing today, the more I am ashamed that we helped them liberate their country back in WWII.

So you'd prefer to see someone enslaved rather than free and disagreeing with you would you? That's not freedom. IF you'll note France was LIBERATED, not CONQUERED by America. THus it can disagree with any US policy it wishes and power to them. It will keep the USA honest. Just like a strong opposition party within a democracy theoretically keeps the government more honest than otherwise.

It is important for the world that loud voices proclaiming alternate policies exist. For this reason alone it's a tragedy communism failed as a valid economic theory, because it left capitalism as the only workable ecotheory around.

Diversity is a strength.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Wutang: The more I see what France is doing today, the more I am ashamed that we helped them liberate their country back in WWII.

You should never be ashamed of helping people buddy. You're frustrated that others are not adhering to your own point of view, just as I'm sure many others are frustrated that you do not adhere to theirs. The bottom line is that this situation threatens to break apart an alliance system forged from two world wars and the subsequent era of cold-war standoff and espionage. The road out of this quagmire may or may not come from a full-scale invasion of Iraq, but it certainly won't come from insulting our allies (and that goes for EVERYONE involved) and accentuating our differences to an unrealistic level.
Be proud of what the US army did for the French people in the Second World War, and be proud of yourself for wanting to make a positive difference in the world buddy. We have to work on recognizing the things that make us all alike, rather than those that make us different. Everyone wants to avert a disaster here, there are just many different ideas on how to go about it. A consensus can always be reached though.
Common ground my friend, there's alot more of it than meets the eye.

[Davros]

Wutang,

Sounds like I share your view on the justness of tackling Saddam, but I do NOT share your view of France. Since when did "not agreeing with someone" (like France is doin with Gdubbya) make that person automatically wrong?

[Ar-Cunin]

Originally posted by Wutang: The more I see what France is doing today, the more I am ashamed that we helped them liberate their country back in WWII.

I'm sure France is also 'ashamed' that the helped USA gain independence from GB

[skywalker]

You know, in real life, when you do something for someone, if you are a good person, you never ask for something in return. France "owes" nothing for what we did in WW2. I cringe every time I hear people say the French are ungrateful. It's time to quit thinking about the past and enter the 21st century.

Ar-Cunin is absolutely right...ever hear of the Revolutionary War?

Seems to me that the Bush Administration likes nothing better than dividing people in 2 groups: Us and Them, Either your with us or against us, You join the War Against Terrorism or you favor terrorisim. Look how polarized US politicians have become. If anyone disagrees with Bush, they are out the door.

Looks like Greenspan may be the next to go, according to the papers lately.

Mark

[ 02-17-2003, 06:00 AM: Message edited by: skywalker ]

[Donut]

I love history.

If it wasn't for the French you'd all be talking English now!

[johnny]

Originally posted by Donut: I love history. If it wasn't for the French you'd all be talking English now!

Aren't we doing that already ?

[Moiraine]

Wutang, I am French, and I am honestly trying to understand the point of view of you people who want war now. Do you give the same courtesy to me ?

If you marry someone, will you assume he/she (are you a he or a she ?) will agree with you about everything ? Will you separate at the first disagreement ?

*sigh* You are not French, so you can't know how extreme an accusation you just made. Vichy indeed. Know that almost 60 years after WWII, there are still wounds that aren't cured yet. And maybe ask yourself why it is that we are so opposed to bombing civilians - if it could not be that we have been in Iraq civilians shoes not so long ago ...

I could tell you LOTS of personal stories, from my parents and uncles and aunts and grandparents, of what a war is REALLY like - from the inside. Not a martial thing of battling evil - but endless miseries. I can't imagine we'll be visiting that again on people, real people, farmers, women, children, whose only sin is to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Please, next time you feel like going all righteous and martial, as the French saying goes, "turn your tongue seven times in your mouth". You have hurt me a lot with that post of yours. [img]graemlins/verysad.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Wutang: For those that don't know or remember Vichy france during WWII, The Vichy govt gladly cooperated with the Germans and Japanese

Not so the Vichy French fought several military operations against the Japanese in 1940/1 and against their (the Japanese) allies the Thais..if you want to look them up they are most notably the naval engagement against the Thais at Ko-Chang and the land battle at Lang Son against the Japanese.