Married names and titles

[Bardan the Slayer]

One thing that intrigued me about the USA was the way a child always takes the name of the father.

Mr and Mrs Smith will have a son, James Smith. From then on, no matter what, James Smith is his name [img]smile.gif[/img]

Over here, it can be different. I had a friend who was born Craig McLaughlin. His folks got divorced, and his mom took back her maiden name, as did Craig, becoming Craig [Jones] (can't remember exactly.) Then she remarried, and Craig [Jones] took on his step-father's name and became Craig Scope.

This seemed like a perfectly normal thing to me, but when I told Reeka about it she was dumbfounded that a child doesn't always tke their father's name [img]smile.gif[/img]

A little OT, i know, but I thought it was semi-demi-relevant, so posted anyway. I do things like thast. It's what makes me dangerous

[ 07-08-2003, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: Bardan the Slayer ]

[Aelia Jusa]

LOL Bardan . I do that too, in fact I think that's why lots of my posts don't get responded to because they're usually tangential to the actual topic . Although I think that was relevant! Because I was thinking as well what sort of surname my kids would have if their parents have different last names. His I guess. Here it's the norm, or at least as far as I know it's the norm for children to take their father's name and retain it if there's a divorce. They may change it if there are special circumstances or if their mother remarries and they're living with her and their new stepfather however. I think it should be up to the child in that case, like if it is a really bitter divorce but the child still has a good relationship with their father they shouldn't have to change their surname to their mother's just because she wants them to.

That's really interesting Kakero! I certainly wasn't aware of that. Though it seems odd that it would be seen as incestuous or like incest. What if two people married who coincidentally had the same last name already!

Anyway I will always have the name I have now regardless of whether I marry or not. I agree that hypenated names are way too cumbersome so I won't be going that route but my name is part of my identity! I won't become a whole new person when I get married, or at least any more different than my husband will be, so neither will my name change. I'm also a Ms, now and forever. I get a bit peeved whenever I get a form to fill out, and there's the list of titles - Mr, Mrs, Miss, Ms, Dr - men have one choice which doesn't give anything away but women can indicate whether they're married or not, and they didn't even used to have a choice! Mrs or Miss was all. Bugger that . Perhaps I'll get my doctorate and no one will know if I'm even female! [img]graemlins/evillaughter2.gif[/img]

That's really nice Chewie [img]smile.gif[/img] . I can definitely see where your fiance is coming from. I'm sure your parents will understand as well considering your brothers [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Yorick]

The thing about a woman keeping her name is that she's still keeping a man's name. Her father's.

The only way a fair nonsexist system would work is for women to keep their mother's name, and guys to keep their father's. But even then it's still sexist.

And where do you go back to? Due to out patriarchal society, all surnames are from men at some point (in anglo saxon society.) In Nordic society it's been different. The singer Bjork for example has the surname (translated) Goodmansdaughter.

To answer the question, my (ex)wife kept her fathers surname and did not take mine. We are now divorced. Reach your own conclusions if you like.

Was it representative of a greater symtom that got played out? In hindsight most definitely. It was a way she expressed something that manifested in other areas of our marriage and resulted in it ending. Her not taking my name indicated other attitudes were present.

Whatever.....

Ironically, when it was convenient for her, she took a hyphenated name, incorporating my name with her fathers.

This coincided with a song of mine charting and IMO the resultant insecurities that generated.

A futher irony, is her parent were divorced, yet her mother kept her married name, rather than reverting to her maiden name. Purely because it sounded better.

Again... whatever.

So. If I had a wife that wanted to keep her father's name, there had better be a good (professional or phonetic) reason. If it indicates seperatist reasons that may undermine the unity a marriage requires, there's no way I'd go through that bullcrap again.

[Moiraine]

Great thread Aelia !

Interesting points, Yorick. [img]smile.gif[/img] Though, being a woman, I view things somewhat differently.

I use my husband's name - but not for the usual reason. Being somewhat of a feminist, I am rather against it, since it keeps somewhat alive, at deep levels, the notion that you pass from the care of your father to that of your husband. The Napoléon codes had for basis that "woman, as children and mad people, are unable to manage their own life", and though greatly amended they are the basis of our laws ... Until 1970, a married woman had to have her husband's written permission to have a job !

There is also one great disadvantage at changing name when you marry : if lost friends from school or past life try to find you, thet can't. It reflects the old tradition that when a woman marries, she sheds her past to enter her husband's house and life.

BUT there is also the fact that, since traditionally children keep only their father's name, as a result many traditional names disappear and the most common names are worn by more and more people. And my maiden's name is Robert, which is the 10th most common name in France. While my husband's name, Coiffier, is a rather rare family name originated from the Auvergne region. So I preferred to use his name instead of mine. [img]smile.gif[/img]

In France, since a few years ago, you can choose to give your children their father's name, their mother's name or the combination of both - in that last case, the child has to choose the one he wants to keep when he is adult.

Interestingly enough, my sister, who is a rather "hard-core" feminist, and who is not married, nonetheless chose to give both his children their father's name. Maybe it's for the same reasons as mine : her boyfriend's name is so rare that only his family is wearing it in the whole country ! [img]smile.gif[/img]

EDIT : To answer that last leg of your question, my husband let it to me to choose either way. I believe he felt that since the consequences were for me, the choice was too. That's one of the main reasons I married that guy : he never tried to direct my life !

[ 07-08-2003, 03:49 AM: Message edited by: Moiraine ]

[Ramon de Ramon y Ramon]

Originally posted by Moiraine: ... EDIT : To answer that last leg of your question, my husband let it to me to choose either way. I believe he felt that since the consequences were for me, the choice was too. That's one of the main reasons I married that guy : he never tried to direct my life !

Nonsense, you married him because he can cook and you can't! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Moiraine]

Originally posted by Ramon de Ramon y Ramon: Nonsense, you married him because he can cook and you can't! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I said ONE of the reasons, Ramon y !

And this one is not amongst them - when I married him, neither of us could cook though I was abysmal at it.

[Yorick]

Hmmm. I was... inebriated when I wrote that last post.

I've thought long and hard about this very issue.

A common name for a family is a wonderfully unifying factor. Especially I believe, for children. As much as creating a new name for a family when the couple marry, a linking point with cousins and the extended family is lost.

What's in a name? An perceptional increase in unity.

I have a rarish first name. I feel "connected" in a way with others who have the same first name, even though we are not family. We share the perception of what it's like to go under that name however, so there is some commonality.

So for a family, an extended family to all share a name, there is an additional degree of unity created by all possessing the same surname.

The obvious conundrum is that the maternal side is lost.

I've long been a fan of say four or more names though, with the second last name being the mothers maiden name. That way, if a girl marries and loses her fathers name, she keeps her mothers.

Lisa Goldberg Jones marries Roland Green.

She becomes
Lisa Goldberg Green

Their son and daughter are named
Tristian Melvin Jones Green and
Helen Avril Jones Green.

Helen marries Grant Boxworth and becomes
Helen Avril Jones Boxworth.
Tristian marries Judith Juicy and has a son named
Yambert Loxnode Juicy Green.

Helen and Grants kids are named
Fatima Maple Jones Boxworth and
Walter Welter Jones Boxworth.

Fatima has a daughter out of wedlock to Ishmael Hasan al-Haq (As he is Arabic, Ishamael is his family name).

So she names her daughter
Lisa Annalisa Jones Ishmael.

In this way, we can trace the female family tree as easily as we can currently with the male family tree. There are links and unity, while room is there for individualism and creativity.

[Moiraine]

Yorick, in your first post and this last one, why do you automatically assume that if there is one common name, it has to be the man's ?

What will you do if the lady of your life ever asks you to use her name ? For the sake of sharing and unity ?

[pritchke]

Originally posted by Bardan the Slayer: One thing that intrigued me about the USA was the way a child always takes the name of the father. Mr and Mrs Smith will have a son, James Smith. From then on, no matter what, James Smith is his name [img]smile.gif[/img] Over here, it can be different. I had a friend who was born Craig McLaughlin. His folks got divorced, and his mom took back her maiden name, as did Craig, becoming Craig [Jones] (can't remember exactly.) Then she remarried, and Craig [Jones] took on his step-father's name and became Craig Scope. This seemed like a perfectly normal thing to me, but when I told Reeka about it she was dumbfounded that a child doesn't always tke their father's name [img]smile.gif[/img] A little OT, i know, but I thought it was semi-demi-relevant, so posted anyway. I do things like thast. It's what makes me dangerous

I know several people who have done that in this country as well. It can get a little confusing when you are in a small town and no one is not sure what to call you anymore. In a larger center no one cares what the last name, as every one is a number.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Moiraine: Yorick, in your first post and this last one, why do you automatically assume that if there is one common name, it has to be the man's ? What will you do if the lady of your life ever asks you to use her name ? For the sake of sharing and unity ?

By taking the female fathers name, I'd be losing the link to my own family. I can't just singlehandedly reorganise western society overnight. I could change my name to incorporate her maiden name as a second middle name (a fourth name). She could for example keep her maiden name in the same way.

However what's the point at this stage? All the surnames have been derived from males thus far. Even to say take her mothers maiden name, is still taking a males name.

What I'm advocating is working within the current western social naming system, yet initiating a female lineage tracing system AS WELL.

Not reinventing the wheel, but adding spokes.