Is circumcision abuse of children?

[bjorn]

Edit: just now i saw that the quote starts with an "if".... damn, all that ranting for nothing.

PRECISELY! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 06-08-2004, 07:20 AM: Message edited by: bjorn ]

[Harkoliar]

Originally posted by wellard: quote: Originally posted by Harkoliar: well circumcision for men i would say would be better when they are small. circumcision of men on adults is just downright painful, at least when your a baby you wont remember a thing. thats what i think anyway. about right for babies, well since its scientifically proven the circumcision for males makes them better off, then i say its the parents right to do it since its the same as the parents right to give your children shots or make them take a bath. we know what is right since the child is still to young to take care of himself. now for women.. its another matter. i dont support it at all.

G'day Harks

"well since its scientifically proven the circumcision for males makes them better off"

How? Why?
If there is a medical reason then you carry out the procedure. You do not do pre-emptive surgery, this is an excuse. You do not take the tonsils out of a baby without reason nor any other surgery. It's just a lame excuse to perpetuate cruelty.[/QUOTE]http://www.circinfo.net/ check out this link. It shows the benefits and the risk. Its how you percieve it to which is more beneficial(risk) to you.

Its not a lame excuse to circumcise because you, as a parent, think its right (or not) to have your baby circumcised then its your choice as a parent.

*off topic* good day as well wellard, how is it going over there? I havent seen you in ages. We should meet up again

[ 06-08-2004, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: Harkoliar ]

[johnny]

Originally posted by bjorn: quote: Edit: just now i saw that the quote starts with an "if".... damn, all that ranting for nothing.

PRECISELY! [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]In any case, i made my statement. I'm sure there are people outthere who actually DO feel healthier because of it, but they had probably a few other things removed as well in their younger years.

[bjorn]

I'm sure there are people outthere who actually DO feel healthier because of it

I think thats just the placebo effect, but then again, I'm not circumcized and neither are most of my country's population but I don't think that the spread of infection in sweden is any larger than the spread in the US.

I would think long and hard before i ever considered circumcition

[ 06-08-2004, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: bjorn ]

[Stratos]

As long as you use anestethics and perform it in a clean enviroment, you probably wont have any problems with a (male) circumcision. Is it abuse? No, I don't really think so, there's worst things going on in the World today.

What really interrest me is the cleanliness issue. If the risks of infections were as big as some people make it out to be, wouldn't we ( the men) be born without foreskins in the first place? What would be the point of having it if it's invites infections.

[wellard]

Wow! That is one extremely radical site offering poor excuses He reads like Johnny’s nutty prof IMO. But even they are showing that the rate for new circumcisions is very low in most countries.

Australia:
Medicare statistics based on rebate claims for circumcision show 16-19% of infant boys are circumcised
Britain:
Much like continental Europe, the rate is only 7-10% for boys aged less than 15 years (from the pro mutilation link above)

I will try and find more accurate / updated figures

Of course the point I carefully made and accept is that there may be medical reasons to carry out the procedure BUT only after diagnosis. As stated its just wrong to carry out a tonsil or appendix removal in a baby just to prevent a POSSIBLE problem that MAY occour in the future. In fact is it against the medical oath (hippocrates?) to carry out unwarranted surgery?

[wellard]

Originally posted by Stratos: What really interrest me is the cleanliness issue. If the risks of infections were as big as some people make it out to be, wouldn't we ( the men) be born without foreskins in the first place? What would be the point of having it if it's invites infections.

Exactly, nature usually gets thing right over time. I find the clean / unclean issue insulting. If a kid can not wash behind his ears would you chop the ears off? Does that mean that most of the western world does not know how to keep themselves clean?

[Vaskez]

It is the job of the parents to teach young boys how to clean themselves properly at an early age, including how to wash behind the ears

It does strike me that the link posted by Hark starts out by claiming that it is a balanced article giving both sides of the story and then it goes on to list NO advantages and MANY disadvantages of being uncircumcised.

[wellard]

Canada's leading medical ethicists. Margaret Somerville, founding director of the McGill Centre for Medicine, Ethics and Law, said in an interview with the Citizen this week that non- medical infant male circumcision is technically criminal assault and that Canadian doctors should not be doing it.
She said it's time Canadian society challenged its "laissez-faire" attitude toward a practice she described as "bodily wounding on a tiny infant" without his consent.
Society "will say even though technically it's a criminal assault, which it is, we will treat it as though it's not contrary to public policy and allow it to happen," Ms. Somerville said.
"What if we had some new group who, for their cultural reasons, said all children--and don't let's make this sex-discriminatory--all children in our community will have their left earlobe removed after birth. I think Canadians would go ballistic about that, and that's a less dangerous thing to do than a male circumcision."
Anti-circumcision advocates hope Ms. Somerville's decision to publicly enter the debate will help society begin to challenge a North American custom that one Ottawa pediatrician describes as one of the most "intensely painful" events a child will experience.
Circumcision involves forcibly retracting the foreskin and cutting away the inner and outer layers. Despite the availability of inexpensive pain killers, from injections to creams that help deaden the pain, the majority of circumcisions today are performed without any anesthetic
"We really are dealing with something very deep and very heavy and it's no surprise it has taken so long, and the efforts are so difficult in bringing this to an end," Ms. Milos said.

“The Ottawa Citizen. Saturday, October 18 1997”

[Harkoliar]

whoops my mistake.. sigh.. ive been getting a wee bit absentminded lately. thanks for pointing out vaskez!

here is an article for risk of having the circumcision

http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/fleiss.html