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Old 02-08-2005, 09:14 PM   #91
Melusine
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Join Date: January 8, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by Morgeruat:
You didn't answer my question and instead libelled(not slander since slander is spoken)
Thanks for that clarification that I didn't need since I speak and write better English than many native-speakers. I know the difference, it's not so very difficult for me to remember.
As to the rest, I am not saying "I haven't seen it so it doesn't exist", I'm saying I HAVE seen it, I live it every day, I LIVE here. I don't make broad assumptions from thousands of miles away about people I have absolutely no connection to, like you did when you said you already knew what Dutch Muslim reactions were like. I have SEEN them in the marches and protests after van Goghs death, heard their opinions. I walk on the streets, sit in the metros, meet Muslims every day. I think I at least know better what they think than YOU do, even if I can't know their minds completely, since you can't know anyone's mind completely, least of all the "mind" - if there were such a thing - of a whole group.
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Old 02-08-2005, 09:18 PM   #92
Melusine
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnny:
The way i see the whole Van Gogh issue is, that if you keep insulting a certain group of people long enough, and i do mean insult them to the bone time and time again, sooner or later someone of that group will bite a chunk out your ass, and it doesn't necessarily have to be a fundamentalist nutjob.

I'm not saying Van Gogh brought it on himself, but he could have expected something like that to happen, the man didn't know when to stop.

It's undeniable though, that something is very rotten overhere right now. I mean with the deathlist and all. Hirsi Ali, Wilders, Cohen, and even Balkenende can't go in public without an army of bodyguards anymore, and that's something we're not quite used to.

And what the hell did Balkenende ever do wrong to be placed on a deathlist ? Balkenende of all people....please. He's a man you want to pet on the head, buy him an icecream or a lollypop or something, but not kill him. That's just sick.

Keep your sick fantasies about JP de MP to yourself please.

I agree with your post fully, especially with the part that Van Gogh dit NOT bring this on himself. It is sickening to think there are people who consider the act justified, because it entails you can be punished for having thoughts and opinions.

I also agree, however, that what happened was not a big surprise. You put it well - to harass, insult to the bone and hurt a group of people consistently, loudly and repeatedly is not a wise course of action. Let's be frank, the guy was a complete and utter prick in that way. Of course he didn't deserve it, of course the reaction was wrong. But it was not unprovoked.
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Old 02-08-2005, 09:33 PM   #93
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My point exactly. It was also sickening to see the term "freedom of speech" being twisted after that. Freedom of speech is fine, but that shouldn't give anyone the right to insult someone or something over and over again and hide behind freedom of speech. You can find me an asshole, and that's fine with me, but keep calling me that, and sooner or later i'll scratch you off my christmascardlist, so to speak.

A few days after the murder, a muslim of Dutch origin spoke on TV about how he wouldn't mind if "something" would happen to Geert Wilders. He only hoped it wouldn't involve a muslim. That something didn't necessarily have to be an attempt of murder, but cancer would be an option too. Not a smart thing to say on TV of course, but suddenly there wasn't any freedom of speech anymore, the whole nation gone mad and the man in question is still undercover today.

So it's okay for Theo to call muslims 'geitenneukers', but it's not okay if a muslim wishes Wilders cancer. It's confusing the hell out of me, and i'm going for a jonge jenever now.
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Old 02-08-2005, 09:34 PM   #94
Morgeruat
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnny:
It's undeniable though, that something is very rotten overhere right now. I mean with the deathlist and all. Hirsi Ali, Wilders, Cohen, and even Balkenende can't go in public without an army of bodyguards anymore, and that's something we're not quite used to.

And what the hell did Balkenende ever do wrong to be placed on a deathlist ? Balkenende of all people....please. He's a man you want to pet on the head, buy him an icecream or a lollypop or something, but not kill him. That's just sick.

Barring the very disturbing imagery you've given me, you've made another good point.
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Old 02-08-2005, 09:41 PM   #95
Melusine
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnny:
My point exactly. It was also sickening to see the term "freedom of speech" being twisted after that. Freedom of speech is fine, but that shouldn't give anyone the right to insult someone or something over and over again and hide behind freedom of speech. You can find me an asshole, and that's fine with me, but keep calling me that, and sooner or later i'll scratch you off my christmascardlist, so to speak.

A few days after the murder, a muslim of Dutch origin spoke on TV about how he wouldn't mind if "something" would happen to Geert Wilders. He only hoped it wouldn't involve a muslim. That something didn't necessarily have to be an attempt of murder, but cancer would be an option too. Not a smart thing to say on TV of course, but suddenly there wasn't any freedom of speech anymore, the whole nation gone mad and the man in question is still undercover today.

So it's okay for Theo to call muslims 'geitenneukers', but it's not okay if a muslim wishes Wilders cancer. It's confusing the hell out of me, and i'm going for a jonge jenever now.
Bloody hell Johnny, I've never agreed with you this much!
You put your finger on what's been annoying the HECK out of me as well, the bleating about "free speech". It's become just a eufemism for the ignorant to excuse their blatantly racist waffle (ja, dat mot maar eens gezegd kenne worde!) but exactly as you say, God (or Allah [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) forbid if the *other* side chooses to exercise *their* right to free speech. Very well said all.
And enjoy your jajem, I'm off to bed now... need to get out of my ridiculous, deadline-induced sleeping pattern ~yawn~
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Old 02-08-2005, 11:01 PM   #96
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i sit and i wonder at all of this.

we (speaking for my husband and i) are asked to not speak badly about islam extremists (islamofacists is the word i've seen here) and it is compared to someone speaking badly about christianity and the holy bible.

we are mormon. there are whole groups of people set up specifically to speak out against our church. their purpose to destroy our faith. most of them saying we are a cult. in fact one state still had laws saying a mormon could be shot on site until approx 1978. for no reason, cept that he or she, man, woman or child, should be shot for being mormon.

i hate all religious oppression, but i also hate vilolence in the name of religion. any religion.

please stop "picking" on eachother. it's really quite embarrassing to the human race. we all have opinions and it's not the duty of any of us to change the opinion of another. provide eachother with facts, ok, but there's a lot of tension on this thread, a lot of skirting around angry feelings. leave it be.
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Old 02-09-2005, 12:05 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cerek:

Most Southerners really do NOT take as much offense at "red neck scum" as you might think. As John D. pointed out, we actually wear that badge with a bit of pride. Because whenever it is used, it is a clear sign that we have pissed off somebody who disagrees with us and they have nothing left to do but to resort to insulting our heritage. Too bad for them we aren't as ashamed of our heritage as they would like us to be.
ROTFLMAO, it takes years of ta-bacy chewing, pork rine eat'en, and NASCAR watching to de-velope that finely honed skill. [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Old 02-09-2005, 12:29 AM   #98
shamrock_uk
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Never has a thread grown by so much in so short a time!

Morgeruat - I don't even know where to begin. Firstly, I think your article isn't really credible. It even reads like right-wing anti-Muslim propoganda - certainly not the kind of measured discourse that would encourage me to change my opinions.

I know many many Muslims. I live with them, I study with them, I've even met their families. I've been to Muslim countries in the Middle-East. The picture that article paints is simply not representative.

I used to discount stories of racism and persecution out of hand as simply made up to take advantage of political correctness, but hearing some of the abuse, vandalism and assault experienced by my Muslim friends (often on a daily basis) is enough to make anybody question that a non-Muslim way of life is somehow inherently better. I find that there is almost a stoic quality within the Muslim community in Britain - what some see as a sinister grouping of religious fanatics, I see as a community that has to stay together for security and comfort.

I've read most of the Bible and most of the Qu'ran now. The Qu'ran has phrases in it of a similar 'apocalyptic' nature to that of the Bible (where in the OT God does some pretty imoral things from time to time) but the difference is in the telling. In the Bible, its told from a historical perspective (this did happen, that did happen etc) whereas the Qu'ran is more prescriptive (you should do this etc).

Does that make it more dangerous? Perhaps. Are the quotations used by terrorists to justify their attacks distorted? Almost always.

I would like to direct you to this website:

http://www.submission.org/

which offers a nice 'study bible' approach to the Qu'ran for those that are interested.

Mogeraut, perhaps you in particular would find this page interesting:

http://www.submission.org/jihad/

It covers issues like "the reward for killing an American", "terrorism", "freedom" etc and attempts to show that under the generally accepted readings and interpretations of the Qu'ran the terrorists have no religious justification for the terrible deeds they commit.

Now that's the Qu'ran out of the way, what about the Hadith? It is certainly often cited as the real bone of contention with Islam, but I would argue that's due to misunderstanding. You must look at the writings in context - was Islam a military religion that expanded by the sword? Yes, of course. But why? Because if Mohammed hadn't raised a small army he would have been wiped out for his heretical beliefs. The early years of Islam were troubled indeed, and the force used was necessary for the very survival of the religion.

Furthermore, modern Muslims do believe in all the rights and priveleges that we do. They interpret their religious texts and traditions to fit modern life, exactly as Christianity has done (and continues to do) throughout its history.

If you chart the rise of any extreme Islamic group in the Middle-East, no matter which country, the same fundamental ingredients are always present - urbanization and poverty. Islam is used as a political tool in the Middle-East, in the same way that any other ideological viewpoint has been (whether its Communism, Nationalism etc). Islamic terrorism isn't some fundamental inseperable part of Islam, it can be explained in terms of poverty, disollusionment and cynical exploitation on the part of their leaders.

In a dictatorial state (many of which, incidentally Morgeraut, were funded and supported by the US) the Mosque is naturally the place where political discourse takes place and the world is set to rights. If you can't express political views in public, then the Mosque is the perfect place for debate and thus an easy way for a cynical terrorist to mobilise active support for opposition. This doesn't mean that Islam itself is somehow a terrorist religion, its just a result of the situation in these countries.

Is every Muslim anti-American because they believe in Islam? Of course not! Anti-American views are often rather justified (and not held just by Muslims either): US policy in the region has often been deplorable (and of course the British and French don't escape blame either) - its not surprising that the US is not well-liked in that region. Its not even an implausable view that the excesses of capitalism are immoral; when the 3 richest men have the combined wealth of the worlds poorest 600 million people there are (at the very least!) some ethical questions to be asked.

Muslims have every right to be angry about US policy in the Middle-East - but this doesn't mean that they want to kill American civilians. The average Muslim is not a foaming-at-the-mouth fanatic. They are fathers, mothers, sons and daughters, trying to live a 'good' life by their beliefs, just like you. Above all, they are human beings, deserving of respect for their traditions and faith - I would beg you to make an effort to find out more and talk to Muslims about their faith. When articles like the one you posted are circulated, it only ever continues the cycle of ill-feeling, violence and ultimately death.

[ 02-09-2005, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]
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Old 02-09-2005, 12:38 AM   #99
RevRuby
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Quote:
Originally posted by shamrock_uk:
Muslims have every right to be angry about US policy in the Middle-East - but this doesn't mean that they want to kill American civilians. The average Muslim is not a foaming-at-the-mouth fanatic. They are fathers, mothers, sons and daughters, just like you. Above all, they are human beings, deserving of respect for their traditions and faith - I would beg you to make an effort to find out more and talk to Muslims about their faith. When articles like the one you posted are circulated, it only ever continues the cycle of ill-feeling, violence and ultimately death.
i believe that if you read the whole thread you will see that my husband has made it clear he dislikes islamofacists, not muslims as a people. he has studied and looked into things. the fact that you feel that muhammed (?spelling?) had a right defend himself violently proves that the islamic church was based on violence. whether or not that is how it is today is kind of hard to tell. as much as our own church is called a cult because of our secret temple, etc. the muslim people keep just as many if not more secrets. all of us seem to want to point fingers at those who think differently than ourselves..

all of this started because nathan refuses to change the name of the thread, and some on here have decided to throw their opinions around. this includes my husband, but the anger here reallys hould stop and i do wish either people would leave this thread or a mod would shut it down. no one is learning anything here.
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Old 02-09-2005, 12:52 AM   #100
shamrock_uk
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Quote:
Originally posted by RevRuby:
i believe that if you read the whole thread you will see that my husband has made it clear he dislikes islamofacists, not muslims as a people. he has studied and looked into things.
That's great to hear, but really my post was directed towards Morgeraut and not at you or your husband.

Quote:
Originally posted by RevRuby:
the fact that you feel that muhammed (?spelling?) had a right defend himself violently proves that the islamic church was based on violence. whether or not that is how it is today is kind of hard to tell.
Sure it was, but then every religion/belief has its fair share of historical violence - it doesn't mean that the violence becomes unseperable from the religion which was the point I was trying to make.

Quote:
Originally posted by RevRuby:
all of us seem to want to point fingers at those who think differently than ourselves..
Well darn, I didn't think I was pointing figures at anyone - indeed the whole point of my post was to try and halt the pointing of fingers!

Quote:
Originally posted by RevBuby:
but the anger here reallys hould stop and i do wish either people would leave this thread or a mod would shut it down. no one is learning anything here.
I'm certainly not angry and I think, considering the emotive topic, that tempers have been kept quite well all things considered.

As for learning things - I've certainly found it informative looking through the thread, and if just one person is encouraged to do some independent research about Islam rather than rely on a specific type of source then this thread will have acheived something worthwhile...

[ 02-09-2005, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]
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