General Conversation

[Kygon-Jo]

I have enjoyed D&D computer games all the way back to the TSR versions. The Baldurs gate 1 and 2 and the expansion packs were fun.I did not play the first Icwind Dale because I Could not import my characters form Baldurs gate.

We spend so mych time gaining experience and developing our chararchters I wish that we could import form game to game. I also do not like the Xp and level caps. This is one cheat that I do use I get the Experience and level cap remover.

I realize that especially with wizards that If you get to high you will not have any spells to use.

I hope that if Black Isle makes any more D&D games that you are able to Import your characters between the games. Note that I understand that they are using 3rd edition rules but here must be something they could do to remedy any technical problems.

I would have loved to use my Baldurs gate adventurers in Icewind Dale. While it might have been easy in the beginning for a high level party You still have to solve the puzzles and have the fun of exploring. Plus you can alway go to HOF mode. When You import your characters you cannot bring Items so you still have to locate good weapons.

Does anyone Share my opinion.
I welcome all responses whether you agree or not.
Kygon-Jo, the neutral good Ranger.

[Ishanda]

I wholeheartedly agree.

I have often wished i could take my BG1 character through to the adventures in IWD and so forth.

I know how they could do this as well

it would just involve different game scripts

if you import from BG1 to BG2 (the characters are stronger) .. then have different experience point scripts and different monster (more difficult) scripts.

the storyline just needs to be stable and thought out well

as an example ...BODI in BG2....she is a special character anyway...so why not have her meaning 10000xp for new characters but 200000xp for older imported ones

the problem lies in where to end it, obviously you can't continue just getting more and more powerful

and the enemies stronger and stronger.

the answer IMHO, would be to make the stories stronger, and the rewards more tangible. I believe the idea was brought out best by Planescape: Torment.

I ask myself...what is the point in an RPG. To level-up and become more powerful and powerful? NO, of course not. The point is that it is an ADVENTURE first and foremost, and that our characters GROW whilst adventuring.

Why does GROW have to mean "more powerful"? What if rewards meant we learn more about things, about ourselves, that we discover "keys" to quests. And inate abilities. As an example, our group saves a Dwarfish warrior from a bunch of undead in a long subquest plot. The reward would be that each of our characters would be able to choose an individuallistic something relating to the dwarf. The dwarf would offer to teach our fighters how to perform an "uppercut-slash" with an axe, or teach the thief how to look for tell-tale signs that mechanical wire traps that fire arrows have been laid in/on stone floors. The wizard could be taught how to transmute a particularly specific weapon not into just 100gp (as per normal) but into 500gp. VERY small things that advance us only a little bit in the bigger scheme of things. instead of having 4 points of specialization in Long Swords for instance, you could have a vast array of small skills...of of which have to be earned, and you would never earn all at once....you should never be able to learn all.

Examples: with a longsword you make learn,

to sharpen your blade better
how to thrust further
how to make a fake parry
how to "dull" the blade, that makes sneak atttack more likely (no glint)
a double-handed hack
to make a more powerful swing
to make a quicker stab
learn how to use a metal guantlet to block an attack from someone wielding another sword

etc.

Magic can be even more intense, in this way there never need be a limit to spells, the number of spells available would only be limited to the imagination of the game creators

I would be proud to play such a character, such a character would be totally individuallistic. I could look at my character sheet and see (not level or xp), but instead skills learned, attributes gained. even non-physical ones.

eg. Taught by Monk how to speak Orcish.

When stepping into battle with orcs there would be a language check. I would then have the option of talking to the orc/s. Maybe evade the battle, maybe just find the location of some treasure, maybe a clue regarding the particular quest, Maybe JUST ENHANCING THE ROLE-PLAYING EXPERIENCE with nothing else gained from it. The point is not to beat the game or reach the end. It is to see in how many ways we can do it, in how many ways the game can be experienced. What different paths there are to follow. TO live as if we were our characters, experience their world, interact with their surroundings in many different and unique ways.

I would LOVE such a game, a game where i can identify with my character, where i love playing my character.

Would I ever see such a game? Who would rewrite the rules? Cause that is what it would take - no Experience points, but instead tangible rewards.

As I said, Planescape touched on the idea, where you learned skills by finishing quests.

Phew, I can only dream

[koz-ivan]

there are aspects of the old ssi games that i miss, being able to start a 1st level newbie in pools of radience and finishing the saga w/ pools of darkness (4 games) at level 40 but somewhere along the way the designers and fans (i guess) fell in love w/ something to make the concept useless.

the level up.

bg1, iwd1 & 2, and nwn (spcamp) are all designed to start w/ a level one newbie and grind through levels, now your party is far too powerfull at the end to make challenging encounters, not to mention the fact that you achieve such legendary status and power that the follow up would either be cheesy (you wake up w/ no items, a la bg1 ->2) or you barrel into the next game w/ a million gp in the bank & high quality gear.

if you've played bg2 -> tob what could possibly challenge you at the end of that? and remember that that would now have to be the "start" point of a new game, that encompases the next 20 levels or so of advancement.

when your char goes from lv 1 -> demigod in the span of maybe a year or two, where would you be in years 3 & 4...

[Ishanda]

Exactly....

get rid of the "level" concept.
I thought of another one....

Achievements.

eg.

Defeated Sarevok thereby stopping evil=plot to take over the world. (BG1)
Cleaned up the Vale of Shadows of Undead (IWD1)
Solved the Waterdeep Animal mystery (BG2)

it would be a running record of what a character has achieved and done and een through. You could even add smaller achievements. List friends, enemies.

This could then go on through many different games. This would allow a character to explore MANY diverse parts of Faerun (maybe extraplanar places), have adventures take place in other parts.

The fun would be to explore, and to record what you have done and where you have been. That would be reward enough for me.

[koz-ivan]

well the record sounds a lot like the journal concept, which was done well in bg2 & nwn imo. iwd2's journal seems a bit sketchy and much harder to keep track of.

it's intresting to compare the level caps of some of the older games vs a game like iw2, in the older style games (thinking curse of azure bonds) you start at 5 and go to maybe 11 or 12, i just finished chapt 2 and i've hit that level already (and started from level 1)

your first post reminded me of the white wolf style of games, (werewolf, vampire, mage ...)

where you don't have easily defined levels, but a collection of skills and stats that can be raised w/ earned xp, but it's totally up to the player & what skills they use in the course of each "story" and that seems to be the point you make pretty stongly, these "games" should be "stories" not a series of monster slayings inbetween level ups.

i never played the vampire computer game, but this has got me to thinking that that paticular style of play may make for a much better game, than the d&d system. (i do think 3rd edition was a step in the right direction however)

[Kygon-Jo]

Good thoughts Ishanda. The exploring and adventuring and using your talents is the fun of the game. Although I do feel that you need level and exerience points, something quantitative but that should not e the sole focus. Your ideas of NPC teaching skills and imparting wisdonm to the party are well recieved. I thinks that would add to the feel of giving your character an identity. I must admit I hate starting from level one when I spent 100 hours going through every corner of the six bg2 CDs.

Who Knows what Black Isle will do next. They might not even have the rights to the D&D games much longer. I understand that pepople are looking for something to replace the infinity engine anyway. In that case we will not be able to import are character form are adventure in Icwind dale 2. The game has come a long way from the SSI games. However, at the time it came put I thought Pools of radiance was the greatest thing. Maybe something really cool will come out for us RPG addicts.

[Lrd Feanor]

I am a player from the old gold box D&D from SSI. I like choice. I want the game to include cheats that allow you to play any way you wish. I had a character editor that I used in POR that allowed me to choose feats and maximize my characters, however all magic-users had to start out at level 1 or they would not have choice of spells at each level.

I want a larger world like the original POR. I do not like the maximum level per game and I would like the areas to respond villians after some time like they do in the Might & Magic series. I want to be able to continue to play after the game had been won. Maybe the AI can increase the difficulty with each respond until you are in HOF mode and the game change with the increased difficulty.

[Kygon-Jo]

I agree Lrd Feanor. continuing after the game is done is a good thought. I would be nice to e given a house or building in say tarogos to use as a base.This is given to you after you have saved the city. then go on random adventurs. I see that I am not the only one who would like to see the level cap removed.

[Cerberus]

Have you folks looked at NWN?

[Spikeous]

NWN is awesome... Multiplayer that is