Evolution/Creation 2 (aka Religion III)

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: Too many Christians use the Bible to "justify" their own personal prejudices and that does more harm to the Christian religion than anything else I can think of.[QB]

Why the Inverted Commas?
The bible quite clearly states that we should go out and stone adulterers & homosexuals to death.
Someone I know repeats those particular passages all the time to justify his beliefs, and indeed the bible does justify them as it is written in it that you should go out and do these things.
Of course his beliefs are a load of ignorant, prejudiced tosh and not relective of all christians.
But Surely If Christianity is all about peace & love & tolerence those bits wouldn’t be in the bible right?

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: quote: Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: Too many Christians use the Bible to "justify" their own personal prejudices and that does more harm to the Christian religion than anything else I can think of.[QB]

Why the Inverted Commas?
The bible quite clearly states that we should go out and stone adulterers & homosexuals to death.
Someone I know repeats those particular passages all the time to justify his beliefs, and indeed the bible does justify them as it is written in it that you should go out and do these things.
Of course his beliefs are a load of ignorant, prejudiced tosh and not relective of all christians.
But Surely If Christianity is all about peace & love & tolerence those bits wouldn’t be in the bible right?[/QUOTE]You quite clearly have an alternate view of reality. The bible has an example of an attempted stoning of an adulteress that Jesus prevents. I don't know what you're looking at.

Also, I have Christian friends who are homosexual, so again, I don't know what reality you live in. Christianity is about unconditional acceptance.

Re. Money, the Catholic Church have historically contained Nuns and Monks who did not own possesions. Jesus was quite clear about the worshipping God/Money inconsistency. So don't try bringing up the wealth of a church as 'proof'. If a church is wealthy, it's because their members having been giving money away not worshipping it.

[ 04-27-2002, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: QUOTE]?? What on earth are you talking about? Knobhead the Pommie is a joke pseudo I use when talking to Bruce The Aussie. (Who is English) This is widely known in the Ironworks community. I was on a computer I hadn't used since posting under that name, and unwittingly posted a serious post as such. I think you need to get a grip.

On What, Reality? I lost grip on that a loooooooong time ago.
(Ad Hominem attack BTW FYI, since you are not dealing with the issues of Double standards)[/QB][/QUOTE]?? I am dealing with the issue! There is no double standard because you're barking up the wrong tree!

Mate I'm going to ignore your posts if they contain anymore insulting language in future, and I'd recommend others do the same.

Look at your sig. It's inciteful. It's akin to walking around with a giant swastika. I was talking to an Estonian just yesterday about the seventy million Soviets killed by Communism. He got out despite every family he knew losing members to the communists. Communism is dead Dramnek. Those who tried it don't want it. It killed too many people. Destroyed too many lives. Failed economically, culturally, ideologically and politically. You're chasing a ghost ideology. If you're looking for hypocrisy look no further than the Russian Communist Party.

Am I posting with a huge "JESUS SAVES" message and a giant cross. No. Why? It may piss of those who are annoyed by such images.

You don't have to scream your beliefs by putting down others. A theological belief system should stand on it's own without needed to destroy others.

What has your belief system done for you? Do you feel better since embracing it? Is life more fun? Have your relationships with others improved? Let's hear your testimony about how much you love Lenin or Machiavelli. Let's hear how thinking about what Marx has done for you brings you to tears of gratitude.

That would impact me, and countless others far more than your pathetic attempts to generalisingly villify, ridicule, scorn, label and deride Christianity, Catholicism, Religion, Israel, Capitalism and Christians ability to think, reason, explore and decide for themselves.

And you wonder why I'm antogonistic.

[ 04-27-2002, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Talthyr Malkaviel]

Well luckily the majority of christians out there are like you then Yorick, but actually, however small the cases may be in number's, there are still cases like that, fior example there are churches where they believe that homosexuality is the work of Satan, and in fact once on Graham Norton's show he did one of those random calls and got told by a Catholic priest something along the lines of being gay is a sin and that he would go to hell.

But, although this does happen, I can't say I agree with you Dramnek that all Christians are this way because that is just not true, I am not Christian myself, but I know plenty who are and are fine with homosexuals, Ithink it is more a case of some people being stuck in their ways and misinterpreting things from the bible to concur with their own beliefs, and hopefully this sort of thing will fade out completely.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: And this so-called religious revival (which is small and affects not many people) is a reflection of the increasing alienation within our societies caused by the pressures of modern capitalism. For example someone I know had a nervous break down as a result of overwork, he then deicided it was a relgious conversion experience. He went to a fundamentalist church and... Turned into an Anti-Semitic, Gay bashing, Intolerant lout of a man.)

See this is what I'm talking about. You have not met these people, not spoken to them, have not seen their numbers, nor heard their testimonies, yet you presume to judge THEIR MOTIVES. How are you reaching this judgement? Scientifically? Hardly. You are applying your experience universally. Failing to take into account peoples differences in perspective, experience, mindset, and deeds. One mans experience in England means nothing to the thousands of people in the Church I'm talking about.

The South Korean Church I mentioned has at least one million members. That's one church.

The Singaporean Church I worked in has 13,000 members in a City of 3.5 million. In one night, I witnessed, I personally witnessed 1756 people come down and convert from Buddhist/Daoist religion to Chrsitianity. IN ONE NIGHT. The church revival is huge in Asia. Europe is of no significance. Held in thrall by ancient Catholic or Orthodox ritualism. However, even there, in the bastions of legalistic heirachial churches we are seeing incredible growth in newer, alive Pentecostal Churches.

And. Mark My words. There is revival in New York. Like a seed this will grow. Outward. Using the arts as a means of communicating in spirit the love of Christ.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Talthyr Malkaviel: Well luckily the majority of christians out there are like you then Yorick, but actually, however small the cases may be in number's, there are still cases like that, fior example there are churches where they believe that homosexuality is the work of Satan,

I've seen some frightening things too.

Remember though that Jesus slammed the hypocritical church leaders of his day. He hung out with prostitutes, theives, the sick, the outcast. He hammered to religious minded piety that judged others. The prayer "Thankyou I'm so holy and not like that person", the use of the Temple as a money making venture. The deification of legalism. Petty laws that prevented acts of kindness.

When Jesus actions and words are at odds with a Churches or single christian, why see these as reflective of Christ? It doesn't take much to look at the passage "Let he that is without sin, cast the first stone" and then cross check it with the inquisition, to see the two do not correlate.

Just start with John. The book John, in the bible and check for yourself. It doesn't matter what others believe or do. What matters is what YOU do.

[ 04-27-2002, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Talthyr Malkaviel]

Hmmm, I can't recall much of thatbook, but then it's been a while since I read it (Like I said I'm not a Christian, but when I was in Yr4 I got bored and decided to read it for the interest.)
But from what I remember Dramnek, there wasn't really anything telling people to criticise or bash homosexuals, and the misguided views of a few don't represent all Christianity)
How would you fell if a man who was absolutely devoted to communbism started a litlle group and their view were, shall we say, unconventional and they went on a killing spree, or publicly denounced homosexuals, or some other suc thing.
Would you be happy if Yorick then said that you were just like them???

Originally posted by some knob claiming to be a pommie (Prisoner of Mother England......a pathetic generalisation meant to villify, ridicule, scorn, label and deride the common English peoples......)

Look at your sig. It's inciteful. It's akin to walking around with a giant swastika.

"Ahem"....and then we have....

That would impact me, and countless others far more than your pathetic attempts to generalisingly villify, ridicule, scorn, label and deride

[ 04-27-2002, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: The Dark ]

[Sir Michael]

From Yorick,

Communism is dead Dramnek.

So you're ignoring 1 Billion Chinese people? Or the North Koreans, or Vietnamese?

And what has the change from Communism brought the former Soviet Union? Economic chaos? Starvation? A death rate that actually exceeds the birth rate? A whole generation that is being lost to drugs and alcohol? Government (any many other) employees, including military personnel, who are no longer getting paid? People who live in squalid conditions that make South Central LA or the New York "Projects" look like paradise in comparison?

The US had the chance to help the former Soviet republics, but instead we just gave them money, ignoring the time it takes to develop a sound, functioning democracy (after all, it has taken us 225 years to get to this point), and of course corruption took over, and all the aid just went to lining the pockets of a few government bureaucrats, and the people got nothing. Typical of our foreign policy blunders throughout history.

Cerek, lighten up...you've been following this thread for the last eight days like I have, and you know that there have been plenty of hard feelings, and flames, including from the religious side, despite claims to the contrary. To accuse anyone of flaming or putting forth "Flame-bait" or violating the TOS at this point is just ridiculous.

Yorick, If you have nothing else better to do than criticize someone's sigs...then I would suggest that you have argued yourself out and have nothing else substantive to add to the discussion. And what is it about Communism that bothers you so much? Does it directly affect you? I would suggest that the Christian view of tolerance that you espouse so highly (and frequently, although I can't really say that I see it that much in this country -- perhaps people are more tolerant in Australia), also should extend to ideological systems you don't agree with, even if they hurt people. And if you do feel that strongly about it, why aren't you IN Russia helping people, spreading the faith, and DOING something about it???

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Sir Michael: And if you do feel that strongly about it, why aren't you IN Russia helping people, spreading the faith, and DOING something about it???

When I was 15 I was contributing to help Christians in Russia. Christians imprisoned, killed, tortured and vilified for their faith.