Can we prove Santa Claus does NOT exist?

[caleb]

"The "deluded" and lack of tolerance posts were made by people on this board in other threads"

It was said by HE WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Spelca, here are just a couple of (paraphrased) statements that have been made in other posts

Statements such as "I prefer actual facts over fantasy characters" or (my favorite) "I prefer to think for myself, rather than have somebody else or thier book tell me how to think."

Statements of that nature are directly insinuating that Christians are scared little sheep that are afraid to have an original thought. It also implies that we are not as "enlightened" (ergo intelligent) as those who disagree with us. That type of accusation naturally makes a person defensive.

Don't get me wrong, Christians can be just as insulting and arrogant towards non-believers. I acknowledge that is true and I understand where you are coming from.

I admit that it is difficult for me to fully understand your point of view because I was raised in a Christian home and I have never questioned the existence of God. So, I have a difficult time seeing things from that perspective. That's not to say your viewpoint is less valid, just that I cannot fully understand it because my experience has been different.

I respect your right to NOT believe in God. It saddens me, but I respect your right to believe or not as you see fit.

You asked why Christians keep trying to convince you that God exists. The answer is two-fold. First, the Bible commands us to tell the Good News of God and Jesus. The second reason is that our relationship with God is SO exciting, we want everyone to experience it.

For example, my cousin LOVES rollercoasters, but they scare me to death. When we were younger, she would always try to get me to ride the rollercoaster when we went on vacation. Was she just trying to be mean and scare me? No. She just enjoyed the thrill of rollercoasters so much that she wanted me to experience that same thrill. In her opinion, I was missing out on something that was very exciting.

Christians feel the same way. I don't want you to believe in God to prove that I'm right and you're wrong. I want everyone to experience the joy and exhiliration I have found in having a personal relationship with my Creator.

However, just like I have never gotten on a rollercoaster, I understand there will be many who simply have no desire to seek the experience I have had. But, as I've gotten older, my fear of rollercoasters has subsided and I've at least considered giving them a try.

All I can do is hope that the joy and happiness I feel as a Christian will make non-believers at least a little curious - and maybe they will reconsider their viewpoint too.

[ 06-18-2002, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: Cerek the Barbaric ]

[Calaethis Dragonsbane]

hmmm very interesting... I think I would have to agree with you. I wont state any personal preferences towards religion... but, I understand what you are saying. well said!

Just a quick note to say that Cerek does indeed understand my intentions. I do not wish to put Christians down in any way. I just simply wish to "understand" why they believe what they believe. I'm sorry if I come across as Anti-Christian, rather than non-Christian.

I hope that Yorick (I think I've been spelling your name wrong since the creation of Santa ) can consider my questions and viewpoints in a friendly manner, as Cerek has. Otherwise, a discussion becomes an argument very quickly. I do respect you Yorick, and you have far more knowledge of religion than I could ever hope for.

I'm obviously just writing down my confusion and I'm sure that comes across.

Avi.

[Spelca]

Hey!

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: ------------- Orignially posted by Aviendha: God was made to fill the gap of understanding, that many people feel they have to fill, whereas others are more willing to face up to the more reasonable and rational logic, and funnily enough, has also become a way for people to make ridiculous amounts of money. ------------- Do you see the implication of that statement? It is implying that anyone who DOES believe in God is being un-reasonable and irrational. Or at least it can be interpreted that way.

Yes, I understand that you can see it that way. I didn't see it like that, but I can understand you understood it like that.

You asked why Christians keep trying to convince you that God exists. The answer is two-fold. First, the Bible commands us to tell the Good News of God and Jesus. The second reason is that our relationship with God is SO exciting, we want everyone to experience it.

I don't want to be misunderstood here. I didn't say why 'Christians' keep trying to convince me. I didn't want to focus on one religion. I tried to focus on all by saying 'gods' and 'a god'. Except when I asked Yorick personally, because I know he's Christian. [img]smile.gif[/img] Just so that people will understand I wasn't discussing A religion but religionS. [img]smile.gif[/img]

---------

Nice post otherwise. [img]smile.gif[/img] As I said before, I understand why people believe, and I accept it. And I appreciate that you understand how I can feel a bit annoyed sometimes when people try to convince me to believe differently. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Calaethis Dragonsbane]

I think that some of the problem ppl have is HOW others are trying to convince them... No-one enjoys being forced into something; OR being told that what the believe in/dont believe is a pile of... er rubish... That seems to have given 'vertain' religionS a bad name.... not that really has much to do with the current topic but,

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Aviendha: Well I guess we'll leave it at that then! There really isn't any point continuing with this conversation as you have obviously experienced something that I, up until now, have simply not experienced. I like to consider myself an open-minded person. You may consider me to be narrow-minded as you believe I cannot see what is so obviously right in front of us. Personally, I see nothing, I hear nothing, I feel nothing, that would sway me towards religion! I enjoy my life for reasons that have nothing to do with religion, and I do not require it to fill some gap that other people seem to have. If there is a God, then you are one of his select that he has chosen to have a relationship with. I cannot have a relationship with him, because he simply does not exist for me. Have fun in heaven Yorrick! You obviously deserve it more than I! Avi.

Avi. What if what you're saying is correct? You say there is no gap in your life? Why would God force himself upon you if you don't want or need him? We are given free will after all.

I don't think you have a narrow mind in this, and I'm sorry (to you and other athiests I know) if it came across like that.

What I am saying is that, the Christian and the non-Christian can both have the experience of life without God, but when one comes to know Christ, they are having an additional experience.

What follows is such joy and peace that new converts (the "born again ones" as people mistakenly call them - all Christians are born again) want to 'share the secret' with as many as possible.

My late Grandfather equated Christianity as one hungry beggar, telling another hungry beggar where to find food.

Avi, no-one can make you believe anything. I cannot 'give you belief'. The experience of knowing God is an individual relationship. It is up to you to determine if you want or need that, and whether to attempt to let him in.

Praying to invite him in is the starting point. What follows is the experience of him working in your life. Answering prayer. Feeling his presence - a physical sensation of warmth, tingly goose bumped skin, and a definite palpable ease of pressure in the mind. Calming it or giving inner strength you didn't know you possessed.

The apostle John speaks of "One blessing after another". This is not only a perceptional rearrangement, but can re-order circumstances. Bringing people, places and events into your life that otherwise would never occur.

As for me, I create. I cannot but help but see creative genius in so much of nature. From the beauty of a single leaf to the entire forest. To the dramatic painting in a sunset, to the rythm of waves. To the vulnerable beauty in a baby possum, to the intricacies of a human eye, that changes when it fills with tears. To the wonder of a hug, the sensation of lime on your tongue, the wind in your hair or being immersed in water. The sound of the lyrebird and water dripping in a cave to the humming of a person unaware you can hear them.

So much beauty Avi. So much order, love, genius and design I'm in tears of appreciative joy simply writing this. And, we, creations of his can subsequently create ourselves. Can choose to accept or reject him. Can sing from the bottom of our souls how glad we are to be alive.

Imagine if you could create something that could independently love you of it's own free will. How would you find who really loves you and who feels compelled? Would you not create something like what we have? Where you weren't physically staring the person in the face all the time so that if they wished they could live their lives without you interfering? Yet making it obvious enough that people could search you out? Search being the operative word.

Love with a cost is stronger than easy love is it not? When one invests in a relationship, overcoming some obstacles, perhaps forgiving, making oneself vulnerable, it has more value yes?

[Leonis]

Originally posted by Aviendha: Have fun in heaven Yorrick! You obviously deserve it more than I! Avi.

You know, Christians believe no one deserves heaven except for Jesus Christ. Only He makes any of us worthy of it.

I've got to say, I enjoy these threads though. When they remain civil
But I find it makes me assess and analyse my own beliefs which I find challenging. It's good to stay outside the comfort zone and not get complacent...

[Arnabas]

I agree with Leonis. I may never have my opinions changed by these discussions, but I sure like having them challenged!
As long as this remains a discussion and not an argument, I am happy to participate.

[Melusine]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Harkoliar: just wanna pop in and say "Hi Yorick" !! [img]smile.gif[/img] going to discussions & debate again?" lol nice facts though: i didnt know santa was a pagan [img]smile.gif[/img]

Zor, according to that article from nerone I posted, he wasn't. [/QUOTE]But Saint Nicolas is not the direct equivalent of Santa Claus. I made a post on "Sinterklaas", Saint Nicolas' Day, last year in December, I don't know if you saw it. Sinterklaas is traditionally celebrated on the 5th of December in The Netherlands and some other parts of Europe, and it is strictly separated from Christmas or "the Christmas Man" as we call Santa. "Sint" is dressed as a bishop, with tabard, mitre and staff, and he is MUCH closer to Saint Nicolas than Santa is. Still, it is believed that many aspects of Sinterklaas are in fact derived from paganism. He rides the roofs on a white horse, accompanied by his black helpers, the Zwarte Pieten (Black Petes). In this he is certainly connected to Wotan, with his two black ravens, who used to ride the night sky as well, and who left gifts or did mischief in every house he passed. There are several other aspects of Sinterklaas that are pagan in origin, and yet he is MUCH closer to the original saint than Santa is. Santa doesn't even look saintly anymore, when Sinterklaas has a traditional Catholic apparel. Santa's name is slurred almost beyond recognition. Sinterklaas is almost literally "Saint Nicolas" in Dutch: Sint is the Dutch word for saint and Klaas the Dutch shortened version of Nicolas. So I wouldn't be surprised if Santa derives many elements from paganism as well. In any case it is known that most modern common Christmas practises (the Christmas tree, the Yule-log, the mistletoe, certain dishes, the giving of gifts, the 'feast of light' idea, the date on which we celebrate it) are pagan in origin. It's remarkable how well it adapts to Christianity (and vice versa, of course!): Light is a Christian symbol as well, the giving of gifts a symbol of unequivocal generosity...

[ 06-19-2002, 03:26 AM: Message edited by: Melusine ]