Can we prove Santa Claus does NOT exist?

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Aviendha: I obviously have either had none of these experiences, or did not regard them to be evidential in any way. .

And there you have it.

I have analysed my experience of life and come to the conclusion there is a God who loves me (and you) , who desires relationship with us and, just as he gave life, offers eternal life with him to any who want it.

You have different experience and consequently different analysis. It is to be expected that we humans reach differing conclusions.

The difference is I am not trying to tell you, you are deluded, experiencing chemotropic hallucination, insane or wanting to believe your worldview, thus perpetuating it.

If you are perceiving me to be saying you are missing out on something, well that may be the case. By definition I have an additional set of experiences (The normal human one, plus life with God in it)

There's no need to feel offended by that. I am not scorning or condemning you, nor seeking to change your mind.

I am asking for tolerance. That is all. The acceptance that what I and my bretheren believe is of equal validation to any other athiestic worldview.

Concerning the substance of the moon, that is not really the same analogy. With the question "what is the moon made of",
all is speculation until the substance is tested. Then the public relys on the testimony of those who experienced the collection of the data, to tell us what the moon is made of.

Clearly, the one who experiences the said substance collection is in a better position to determine what the moon is made of that one who has not experienced it.

In this thread what we are dealing with, is the actual existence, or nonexistence of a creator awareness. Of the person Jesus Christ.

A significant proportion of humanity claim to be in regular communication with this persona.

An alternate propartion of humanity are not in regular communication with him and thus claim he does not exist.

Who is being the more foolish? Who is making statements outside their experience?

What I am saying is, a person cannot speak outside their experience when seeking to contradict another.

You say that the moon is made of cheese? Niel Amstrong says otherwise, and I accept his testimony to yours.

You say you have never experienced God, and cannot thus believe? Fine. No problem.

You make the universal statement that God does not exist and we are all deluded. Now we have a problem.

I say, I know God. I know I have a soul. I make a living communicating with the "language of the soul", music. I know God.

This is not an exclusive experience. If one searches with an open mind, one finds him. It's not hard to see his hand everywhere once the minds eyes are open.[/QUOTE]Well I guess we'll leave it at that then! There really isn't any point continuing with this conversation as you have obviously experienced something that I, up until now, have simply not experienced. I like to consider myself an open-minded person. You may consider me to be narrow-minded as you believe I cannot see what is so obviously right in front of us. Personally, I see nothing, I hear nothing, I feel nothing, that would sway me towards religion! I enjoy my life for reasons that have nothing to do with religion, and I do not require it to fill some gap that other people seem to have.

If there is a God, then you are one of his select that he has chosen to have a relationship with. I cannot have a relationship with him, because he simply does not exist for me. Have fun in heaven Yorrick! You obviously deserve it more than I!

Avi.

[Calaethis Dragonsbane]

does it truly matter? either you believe something or you dont. perhaps ppl *do* have religous experiences, but, thats no reason to 'brag' about them. I personally take EVERYthing with a LARGE pinch of salt. but then, Im not going to state my personal beliefs here. Everything is cooloured by perception. again I ask, does it truly matter? if someone seeks long enough, hard enough, then they will find *something*, whether it is what they wanted is an entirly different matter. I agree with Avi that the topics gone far enough, maybe you should close it now.

[caleb]

It appears we have hit the brick wall of "I dont know and neither do you" FINALLY! may atheism vs christianity finally rest in peace. Though I suspect Yorick will have a little to say about avy's somewhat harsh last post

[Calaethis Dragonsbane]

I dont think Avis last post WAS harse. I think it was fully justified. but thats just me..

[johnny]

so, ones life is empty if you don't believe in god, or A god ? I don't believe in a god, but i don't think my life is empty, not at all.

[Epona]

Oh bollocks, sorry Hugh, my mistake about St Patrick, this is why I never get involved in these threads, my memory for detail is crap. My point about pagan origins of some Saints still stands though, and I would be interested to hear your views on these ones:

St. Faith - A virgin-martyr variety saint. Based on "Bona Fides," Roman patron of legal agreements.

St. Josaphat - Corruption of the title Bodhisat; an inadvertent canonization of siddhartha Buddha.

St. George - The patron saint of England is also known as "Green George," a spirit representing the spring season. Geoge's feast day is also known to ancient Romans as the "Feast of Pales," a raucous fertility festival.

St. Restituta - The name means "restored one." - most likely based on the vandalization of a pre-christian "half-burned" goddess statue found on the isle of Ischia and replaced in her temple. According to Christian myth, Restitua as a 'virgin martyr' slain in Africa and considnged to a boat filled with burning pitch. The boat drifted ashore on Ischia where her remains were taken up by Christains and care for.

St. Ursula - Ursula is the ancient Saxon deity represented as a she-bear -- a title shared by Artemis.

St. Blaise - Canonized around the 8th century, Blaise is equivalent to the Slavic horse-god "Vlaise," one of Diana's lunar consorts. In England, he is known as "Blazey."

St. Brigit - Goddess of the flame to ancient Celts

My sincere apologies for getting my info muddled earlier.

[ 06-18-2002, 06:17 AM: Message edited by: Epona ]

well to that extent Santa Claus is lost as a "person" and has become a tradition or activity

does that mean we can say "you've been Santaed!"

[Spelca]

Right, I don't know how to say things in nice sentences like some of you do, so I'm just going to put them in simple ones and hope they're okay. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

--------------
There are some things which bothered me, so I'll just comment on those, hehe.

Originally posted by Yorick: I have analysed my experience of life and come to the conclusion there is a God who loves me (and you) , who desires relationship with us and, just as he gave life, offers eternal life with him to any who want it. You have different experience and consequently different analysis. It is to be expected that we humans reach differing conclusions. The difference is I am not trying to tell you, you are deluded, experiencing chemotropic hallucination, insane or wanting to believe your worldview, thus perpetuating it.

I didn't see anybody in this thread saying you're deluded, so it's unfair of you to say that. All people said was that they've had no or different experience, and that because of that they don't believe gods exist.

If you are perceiving me to be saying you are missing out on something, well that may be the case. By definition I have an additional set of experiences (The normal human one, plus life with God in it) There's no need to feel offended by that. I am not scorning or condemning you, nor seeking to change your mind. I am asking for tolerance. That is all. The acceptance that what I and my bretheren believe is of equal validation to any other athiestic worldview.

Again, I mean no offense. [img]smile.gif[/img]
You are asking for tolerance, and people (at least I) accept your belief. However, it is you that I find unable to accept mine.
You seem to try to prove, or convince me, that because I've had a different experience my belief that gods don't exist is not valid.
You dismiss my belief by saying you've had an experience of a god, while others are not allowed to question yours by saying they haven't had an experience of a god or by trying to find different explanations. Why can't we just accept that for some gods do not exist, and for some they do.

Concerning the substance of the moon, that is not really the same analogy. With the question "what is the moon made of", all is speculation until the substance is tested. Then the public relys on the testimony of those who experienced the collection of the data, to tell us what the moon is made of. Clearly, the one who experiences the said substance collection is in a better position to determine what the moon is made of that one who has not experienced it. In this thread what we are dealing with, is the actual existence, or nonexistence of a creator awareness. Of the person Jesus Christ.

I thought we were talking about Santa Clause? Heheh. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
And, by the way, I *do* believe Jesus existed, just not in the same way you (perhaps?) believe he did. [img]smile.gif[/img]

A significant proportion of humanity claim to be in regular communication with this persona. An alternate propartion of humanity are not in regular communication with him and thus claim he does not exist. Who is being the more foolish? Who is making statements outside their experience? What I am saying is, a person cannot speak outside their experience when seeking to contradict another.

But isn't having 'no experience of a god' an experience? [img]smile.gif[/img] I thought that everything we go through is an experience. So if you try to, erm, feel (?) a god and you don't, that is an experience. Or even if you don't try to feel a god and you don't feel it, it still is an experience that would make it valid for you to say that you don't believe gods exist, because if gods are everywhere, why didn't you feel one? Or, maybe not. This sounded confusing, hehe.
(Sorry for the word 'feel' there. I didn't know what else would fit better. My English isn't perfect. [img]smile.gif[/img] )

You say that the moon is made of cheese? Niel Amstrong says otherwise, and I accept his testimony to yours. You say you have never experienced God, and cannot thus believe? Fine. No problem. You make the universal statement that God does not exist and we are all deluded. Now we have a problem. I say, I know God. I know I have a soul. I make a living communicating with the "language of the soul", music. I know God. This is not an exclusive experience. If one searches with an open mind, one finds him. It's not hard to see his hand everywhere once the minds eyes are open.

I understand that you believe that gods (or maybe just God) exist. I've had many conversations about gods with my friends who feel the same way. And I understand. I also explained to them why I feel there are no gods. And I hope they understood. But I wonder if you do. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Anyway, it doesn't really matter if you do or don't, just please don't say people who haven't experienced a god and thus don't believe they exist are foolish. People have different reasons why they don't believe in gods. Or maybe they don't even have one. And they have a right to that. We all have a right to believe or not to believe. Religious freedom means also that you don't have to believe (?) in a religion and that you don't believe gods exist. Everybody has the same right to be a Christian, a Muslim, or to believe in anything else, or an atheist or non-theist for that matter. I don't really care what people are. As long as people are nice to each other, and respect and accept each other, I'm fine with it. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I didn't mean to offend anyone when I was writing this. I was just writing down my thoughts which I had while reading this. I know I sound confusing sometimes, and I'm sorry for that. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[*\Conan/*]

Not really sure about Santa Claus because I haven't seen one piece of arcitectual evidence to suggest that he "does/did" exist. I love the story thow. Good guy to do unselfish things like that. [img]smile.gif[/img]

But, I have seen evidence that demands a verdict concerning Biblical accuracy. I dont believe, myself, that for one minute its carefully devised fables or mythological in substance.
Having been to Isreal and checking for myself, helped me to research and experience REAL messages from the past. I would encourage all to put the evidence to the test and see for yourselves. The historical sites exist and are there for you to make your own personal choice as to beleive what happened there or not.

(Not much going on at the north pole )

[Yorick]

Spelca, I'm watching the footy, so I'll be brief and reply in detail later.

The "deluded" and lack of tolerance posts were made by people on this board in other threads, not in thus one. The "fool" statement is toward the approach to (lack of) evidence, not to belief itself. Believe what you will. I have no problem with that. I have many friendships with Athiests, Christians, Buddhists and New Age followers alike.

Vive le diff.