Cardinal Richelieu eat your heart out.

Yorick · 02-23-2002, 01:11 PM

RELIGIOUS FREEDOM
Under Suspicion: Faith in France

By George Thomas
CBN News Sr. Reporter

February 25, 2002

Using the equivalent of America's FBI, the French secret police have increased their scrutiny on minority groups across France.

CBN.com - PARIS – One of the oldest democracies in Europe is accused of violating religious freedoms. France made headlines last summer, when it took bold steps to control the activities of certain religious and spiritual groups.
Passing a controversial anti-cult law, France embarked on what some feared was a trend to restrict and oversee religious movements. But the French are not alone. Several other European governments have expressed interest in adopting similar laws.

Thousands gather at a Sunday morning church service in the Mulhouse, France to worship, pray and hear from God. It's a familiar scene repeated weekly across this country and around the world.

But in this country, where the Constitution states: "France shall respect all beliefs"-- evangelical churches like this one, are under suspicion. Such scenes of absolute devotion to God are increasingly viewed as fanatical, irrational. Some even call this church, the largest charismatic church in the country, a cult.

That makes Pastor Samuel Peterschmitt's job of bringing the Gospel to the ends of the earth, all the more challenging.

"Now in France, it is very difficult to preach the Gospel," says Peterschmitt.

And he should know. French security authorities monitor his services.

CBN News questioned one man on the validity of this practice.

CBN News: They mingle among the crowd?

Samuel: Yes.

CBN News: And what are they doing?

Samuel: They are listening, they are writing.

CBN News: They are taking down information?

Samuel: Yes, they are taking information and they know everything.

CBN News: They want to see what you are doing?

Samuel: They want to see what we are doing."

The church in Mulhouse is not alone. Using the equivalent of America's FBI, the French secret police have increased their scrutiny on minority groups across France.

Baptists, evangelicals, and Protestants, along with Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and the Church of Scientology, report growing intolerance and discrimination.

To legitimize their crackdown, the government in Paris has armed judges with a new and powerful weapon. Eight months ago, the French National Assembly adopted an anti-cult law to battle the growing influence of religious movements. Catherine Picard, a member of the assembly, helped write the new law.

Picard is proud to say that the goal is to prevent groups of a "cult-like character" from using "psychological and physical" pressure to recruit and retain followers.

"With this new law, at no time can anyone manipulate someone by forcing them to join a group," explains Picard.

Section I of the anti-cult law makes "mental manipulation" a crime. Anyone found guilty of causing: "a state of psychological or physical subjection resulting from serious and repeated pressures or techniques designed to alter judgement faces five years imprisonment. Courts can dissolve religious groups and impose heavy fines.

"The goal is to punish illegal religious practices that harm the dignity of individuals," says Picard.

"In my opinion, the goal of this law is the completion of the French Revolution-- the eradication of religion in the life of the public in France and the opening of the door for a purely secular society," says Joel Thorton, of the European Center for Law and Justice based in Strasbourg, France. The ECLJ is the international arm of the Virginia-based American Center for Law and Justice.

Thorton fears the anti-cult law could even criminalize evangelism by deeming it an exercise in "serious and repeated pressure."

"This law puts a person, who has a sincerely held religious belief that they need to work to convert people to their religious beliefs," he points out. "It puts them at odds with the government almost from the moment they begin to evangelize people in public or in private."

Ironically, in a nation that touts its motto: "Liberty, Equality and Brotherhood," Picard has this warning for proselytizers.

"Proselytizing is not authorized by the French government. When religious groups talk about having the right to proselytize -- the local government may authorize such activities but in reality such practices are illegal."

Some argue the anti-cult movement in France intensified in 1995 following the mass suicide-murders of members of a secretive cult group.

Two years later, a commission formed to investigate the cult movement in France presented the French parliament with a list of a 172 groups considered dangerous. Among those implicated -- Catholic charismatics and evangelicals.

"From that day on we were branded a sect, a cult in France," says Pastor Vince Easterman, whose evangelical church in Paris was among those blacklisted. "After that list appeared, there was never an opportunity to defend ourselves, there was never an opportunity for an appeal."

After six years of legal wrangling, Easterman was forced to change the name of his church from Christian Life to Union of Protestant Assemblies. Since then, other churches have even considered removing the word "evangelical" from their names for fear of negative media attention.

"There is no doubt that in the last 10 years, France has become increasingly hostile to the Gospel and we have had to adapt ourselves to a changing society, a society that has little respect for the Bible and Christian moral values," notes Easterman.

Other elements of this new law include a ban on advertising or opening religious centers near schools, hospitals or retirement homes. Churches that traditionally help the down and out run the risk of being criminally convicted. Targeting the youth is also illegal.

"If we want to have children's church, Sunday school, that can be seen as influencing minors," he adds. "If we do work for old people, it’s preying on vulnerable. If we what to have a time of prayer and fasting -- its seen as deprivation of food and sleep."

International human rights groups have condemned the law as anti-democratic and anti-religious. And the problem could spread.

"If something is not done in France you are going to see this law move across Europe, I believe, and you'll see a Europe that is united in its hostility to religion," suggests Thorton.

A dozen European countries are now searching for tactics to contain faith groups. And it’s not just the Europeans.

China's Communist leaders are also looking to draw up similar laws based on the French model to monitor religious activities in that country.

CBN News: Did the Chinese contact you?"

"I met with the Chinese leader of religious affairs," answers Picard.

"That's not something that you want to be walking around and bragging about," says Thorton.

Meanwhile, French and European lawmakers are fueled by growing public resentment against a perceived intrusion by American religious groups.

"One person even suggested that it `was America's new way of invading Europe and exercising an imperial influence in Europe through the cults and evangelical churches," says Easterman.

"Europe is very concerned about protecting its democracies," states Picard. "We are fully aware that behind all these prominent religious movements, 90 percent of which comes from the United States, there are hidden agendas that are against the democracies."

Back in Mulhouse, Pastor Peterschmitt braces for a court battle. A former church member, armed with the new law, has brought charges against the congregation. If convicted, Peterschmitt could be imprisoned. His church would be shut down.

CBN News: Are you afraid of going to jail?

Samuel: No way. Why must I be afraid? I cannot say that I will be happy. But if I must go because I preached the Word of God and because the church wants to do the will of God, it will be in this thinking -- a joy!"

It is too early to predict whether enforcing this anti-cult law, passed here in French National Assembly, will become the norm or the exception. In the meantime, Christians in France and across Europe are bracing for what they fear could be a growing wave of religious intolerance.

Neb · 02-23-2002, 01:19 PM

The thought behind the making of the "Anti-Cult" law seems to be good enough, but to me it seems that the execution is flawed....

Perhaps a law against actively trying to "convert" people to one's faith or encouraging others to try to "convert" people....

khazadman · 02-23-2002, 01:57 PM

so the french government is saying its citizens are so weak minded they they can't PROTECT THEMSELVES from the insidious influence of these churches.more proof of government out of control.and any law that attempts to control religious freedom is an evil law.and i'm not what you would call religous.
this is just one step away from actions like taking children from the parents who attend these congregations.it would be to protect them after all.can't have these people thinking for themselves.

government that governs best governs least

norompanlasolas · 02-23-2002, 02:20 PM

interesting thread yorick.

ok. where to start... im usually against any type of government control over individuals. a big brother gov is something to fear. always. ive had many problems with it and i know people that has even worst experiences. and coming from argentina, that live under a dictatorship during most of the 70s that force my parents to flee the country or be killed for "left wing terrorists", i have a deep resentment against all type of gov or military control over the population.

that said, i have to acknowledge that some churches are quite forward and offensive in their recruitment of new followers, up to the point of preying on people in need or that are going through bad times. and the young are obviously that, young. so if their parents cannot protect them somebody has to do it. we have to agree that some religions are merely fachades to money making schemes (scientology comes to my mind). and some cults originate from a twisted human being (who usually thinks he is god) that is charismatic enough to trick people into giving him all their money, having sex with him, and then burning themselves in a big nice bonfire.

imho, religion is one of the most powerful weapons to dominate a persons mind. so i can understand the preocupation in govs that feel they are being infiltrated by foreign religions that try to change the way the society behaves and the moral standards it upholds. the french revolution is a good example of the power of the people. it disposed of two bad things (i dont like the word evil). monarchy and religion although this last one can be more controversial in its labeling. so the secular french gov, has some right to pass laws that try to make their society stay in the way it was intended to be back in 1789.

its a difficult subject, though. id like to hear (well, read) other points of view so i can think this over a different perspective.

Azred · 02-23-2002, 02:24 PM

Wow. One of the purposes of religion and/or religious practice of any sort is to alter your perceptions of reality so that you may come close to an understanding of the Great Mystery of the universe (or God, Allah, etc. the name is not important). This requires certain practices such as fasting, prayer, and religious fervor. According to their definitions, all religions, not just cults, are suspect.

quote:

Section I of the anti-cult law makes "mental manipulation" a crime. Anyone found guilty of causing: "a state of psychological or physical subjection resulting from serious and repeated pressures or techniques designed to alter judgement....

This would make most armed services guilty, according to the way this is written.

Yorick · 02-23-2002, 05:33 PM

Yes. It's not a good thing.

Here we go again.

Where will the neo-Huguenots go now?

norompanlasolas · 02-23-2002, 06:34 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Yes. It's not a good thing.

Here we go again.

yep, in a way i agree that it is probably not a good thing.

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Where will the neo-Huguenots go now?

well, probably amsterdam... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

ok, that was a history nerd kind of joke, if anyones interested. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Moiraine · 02-23-2002, 07:59 PM

Uh-uh ... What, I don't show my nose in here for a week, and bing, you call flames to my beloved country ?!?

Yozza, this law you are referring to was actually aimed at sects, the trigger of it being the mass murder of cultists of the "Temple Solaire" sect, but not only that. There has been the matter of the "Mandarom" sect also, which I know a bit better, having a cousin belonging to that sect ... It's 2 AM here, a bit late for me to do serious talk about sects - seeya tomorrow.

andrewas · 02-23-2002, 08:34 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Moiraine:
Uh-uh ... What, I don't show my nose in here for a week, and bing, you call flames to my beloved country ?!?

Yozza, this law you are referring to was actually aimed at sects, the trigger of it being the mass murder of cultists of the "Temple Solaire" sect, but not only that. There has been the matter of the "Mandarom" sect also, which I know a bit better, having a cousin belonging to that sect ... It's 2 AM here, a bit late for me to do serious talk about sects - seeya tomorrow.

If this law is being aimed at the kind of cult that induces people to commit suicide for there beliefs - like that one centred around a starship hiding behind the hale-bop comet - then id be all for it. But it sounds like its being applied against the mainstream religions as well. Which is not a Good Thing at all. Not that im a fan of religion myself - but people have the right to choose.

Yorick · 02-23-2002, 09:17 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Moiraine:
Uh-uh ... What, I don't show my nose in here for a week, and bing, you call flames to my beloved country ?!?

Yozza, this law you are referring to was actually aimed at sects, the trigger of it being the mass murder of cultists of the "Temple Solaire" sect, but not only that. There has been the matter of the "Mandarom" sect also, which I know a bit better, having a cousin belonging to that sect ... It's 2 AM here, a bit late for me to do serious talk about sects - seeya tomorrow.

Not at all. I love your country. [img]smile.gif[/img] I just don't like that law.

It worries me. Sounds like it worries French Evangelical Christians too from the sound of the article.

It's not the first time French Protestants have had a hard time in France - hence the Richelieu/Huguenot references. [img]smile.gif[/img]

02-23-2002, 01:11 PM	#1
Yorick Very Mad Bird Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam) Age: 52 Posts: 9,246	RELIGIOUS FREEDOM Under Suspicion: Faith in France By George Thomas CBN News Sr. Reporter February 25, 2002 Using the equivalent of America's FBI, the French secret police have increased their scrutiny on minority groups across France. CBN.com - PARIS – One of the oldest democracies in Europe is accused of violating religious freedoms. France made headlines last summer, when it took bold steps to control the activities of certain religious and spiritual groups. Passing a controversial anti-cult law, France embarked on what some feared was a trend to restrict and oversee religious movements. But the French are not alone. Several other European governments have expressed interest in adopting similar laws. Thousands gather at a Sunday morning church service in the Mulhouse, France to worship, pray and hear from God. It's a familiar scene repeated weekly across this country and around the world. But in this country, where the Constitution states: "France shall respect all beliefs"-- evangelical churches like this one, are under suspicion. Such scenes of absolute devotion to God are increasingly viewed as fanatical, irrational. Some even call this church, the largest charismatic church in the country, a cult. That makes Pastor Samuel Peterschmitt's job of bringing the Gospel to the ends of the earth, all the more challenging. "Now in France, it is very difficult to preach the Gospel," says Peterschmitt. And he should know. French security authorities monitor his services. CBN News questioned one man on the validity of this practice. CBN News: They mingle among the crowd? Samuel: Yes. CBN News: And what are they doing? Samuel: They are listening, they are writing. CBN News: They are taking down information? Samuel: Yes, they are taking information and they know everything. CBN News: They want to see what you are doing? Samuel: They want to see what we are doing." The church in Mulhouse is not alone. Using the equivalent of America's FBI, the French secret police have increased their scrutiny on minority groups across France. Baptists, evangelicals, and Protestants, along with Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and the Church of Scientology, report growing intolerance and discrimination. To legitimize their crackdown, the government in Paris has armed judges with a new and powerful weapon. Eight months ago, the French National Assembly adopted an anti-cult law to battle the growing influence of religious movements. Catherine Picard, a member of the assembly, helped write the new law. Picard is proud to say that the goal is to prevent groups of a "cult-like character" from using "psychological and physical" pressure to recruit and retain followers. "With this new law, at no time can anyone manipulate someone by forcing them to join a group," explains Picard. Section I of the anti-cult law makes "mental manipulation" a crime. Anyone found guilty of causing: "a state of psychological or physical subjection resulting from serious and repeated pressures or techniques designed to alter judgement faces five years imprisonment. Courts can dissolve religious groups and impose heavy fines. "The goal is to punish illegal religious practices that harm the dignity of individuals," says Picard. "In my opinion, the goal of this law is the completion of the French Revolution-- the eradication of religion in the life of the public in France and the opening of the door for a purely secular society," says Joel Thorton, of the European Center for Law and Justice based in Strasbourg, France. The ECLJ is the international arm of the Virginia-based American Center for Law and Justice. Thorton fears the anti-cult law could even criminalize evangelism by deeming it an exercise in "serious and repeated pressure." "This law puts a person, who has a sincerely held religious belief that they need to work to convert people to their religious beliefs," he points out. "It puts them at odds with the government almost from the moment they begin to evangelize people in public or in private." Ironically, in a nation that touts its motto: "Liberty, Equality and Brotherhood," Picard has this warning for proselytizers. "Proselytizing is not authorized by the French government. When religious groups talk about having the right to proselytize -- the local government may authorize such activities but in reality such practices are illegal." Some argue the anti-cult movement in France intensified in 1995 following the mass suicide-murders of members of a secretive cult group. Two years later, a commission formed to investigate the cult movement in France presented the French parliament with a list of a 172 groups considered dangerous. Among those implicated -- Catholic charismatics and evangelicals. "From that day on we were branded a sect, a cult in France," says Pastor Vince Easterman, whose evangelical church in Paris was among those blacklisted. "After that list appeared, there was never an opportunity to defend ourselves, there was never an opportunity for an appeal." After six years of legal wrangling, Easterman was forced to change the name of his church from Christian Life to Union of Protestant Assemblies. Since then, other churches have even considered removing the word "evangelical" from their names for fear of negative media attention. "There is no doubt that in the last 10 years, France has become increasingly hostile to the Gospel and we have had to adapt ourselves to a changing society, a society that has little respect for the Bible and Christian moral values," notes Easterman. Other elements of this new law include a ban on advertising or opening religious centers near schools, hospitals or retirement homes. Churches that traditionally help the down and out run the risk of being criminally convicted. Targeting the youth is also illegal. "If we want to have children's church, Sunday school, that can be seen as influencing minors," he adds. "If we do work for old people, it’s preying on vulnerable. If we what to have a time of prayer and fasting -- its seen as deprivation of food and sleep." International human rights groups have condemned the law as anti-democratic and anti-religious. And the problem could spread. "If something is not done in France you are going to see this law move across Europe, I believe, and you'll see a Europe that is united in its hostility to religion," suggests Thorton. A dozen European countries are now searching for tactics to contain faith groups. And it’s not just the Europeans. China's Communist leaders are also looking to draw up similar laws based on the French model to monitor religious activities in that country. CBN News: Did the Chinese contact you?" "I met with the Chinese leader of religious affairs," answers Picard. "That's not something that you want to be walking around and bragging about," says Thorton. Meanwhile, French and European lawmakers are fueled by growing public resentment against a perceived intrusion by American religious groups. "One person even suggested that it `was America's new way of invading Europe and exercising an imperial influence in Europe through the cults and evangelical churches," says Easterman. "Europe is very concerned about protecting its democracies," states Picard. "We are fully aware that behind all these prominent religious movements, 90 percent of which comes from the United States, there are hidden agendas that are against the democracies." Back in Mulhouse, Pastor Peterschmitt braces for a court battle. A former church member, armed with the new law, has brought charges against the congregation. If convicted, Peterschmitt could be imprisoned. His church would be shut down. CBN News: Are you afraid of going to jail? Samuel: No way. Why must I be afraid? I cannot say that I will be happy. But if I must go because I preached the Word of God and because the church wants to do the will of God, it will be in this thinking -- a joy!" It is too early to predict whether enforcing this anti-cult law, passed here in French National Assembly, will become the norm or the exception. In the meantime, Christians in France and across Europe are bracing for what they fear could be a growing wave of religious intolerance. __________________ http://www.hughwilson.com

02-23-2002, 02:20 PM	#4
norompanlasolas Avatar Join Date: November 13, 2001 Location: madrid, spain... made in argentina Age: 47 Posts: 569	interesting thread yorick. ok. where to start... im usually against any type of government control over individuals. a big brother gov is something to fear. always. ive had many problems with it and i know people that has even worst experiences. and coming from argentina, that live under a dictatorship during most of the 70s that force my parents to flee the country or be killed for "left wing terrorists", i have a deep resentment against all type of gov or military control over the population. that said, i have to acknowledge that some churches are quite forward and offensive in their recruitment of new followers, up to the point of preying on people in need or that are going through bad times. and the young are obviously that, young. so if their parents cannot protect them somebody has to do it. we have to agree that some religions are merely fachades to money making schemes (scientology comes to my mind). and some cults originate from a twisted human being (who usually thinks he is god) that is charismatic enough to trick people into giving him all their money, having sex with him, and then burning themselves in a big nice bonfire. imho, religion is one of the most powerful weapons to dominate a persons mind. so i can understand the preocupation in govs that feel they are being infiltrated by foreign religions that try to change the way the society behaves and the moral standards it upholds. the french revolution is a good example of the power of the people. it disposed of two bad things (i dont like the word evil). monarchy and religion although this last one can be more controversial in its labeling. so the secular french gov, has some right to pass laws that try to make their society stay in the way it was intended to be back in 1789. its a difficult subject, though. id like to hear (well, read) other points of view so i can think this over a different perspective. __________________ no

02-23-2002, 02:24 PM	#5
Azred Drow Priestess Join Date: March 13, 2001 Location: a hidden sanctorum high above the metroplex Age: 54 Posts: 4,037	Wow. One of the purposes of religion and/or religious practice of any sort is to alter your perceptions of reality so that you may come close to an understanding of the Great Mystery of the universe (or God, Allah, etc. the name is not important). This requires certain practices such as fasting, prayer, and religious fervor. According to their definitions, all religions, not just cults, are suspect. quote: Section I of the anti-cult law makes "mental manipulation" a crime. Anyone found guilty of causing: "a state of psychological or physical subjection resulting from serious and repeated pressures or techniques designed to alter judgement.... This would make most armed services guilty, according to the way this is written. __________________ Everything may be explained by a conspiracy theory. All conspiracy theories are true. No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.

02-23-2002, 05:33 PM	#6
Yorick Very Mad Bird Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam) Age: 52 Posts: 9,246	Yes. It's not a good thing. Here we go again. Where will the neo-Huguenots go now? __________________ http://www.hughwilson.com

02-23-2002, 06:34 PM	#7
norompanlasolas Avatar Join Date: November 13, 2001 Location: madrid, spain... made in argentina Age: 47 Posts: 569	quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Yes. It's not a good thing. Here we go again. yep, in a way i agree that it is probably not a good thing. quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Where will the neo-Huguenots go now? well, probably amsterdam... [img]tongue.gif[/img] ok, that was a history nerd kind of joke, if anyones interested. [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ no

02-23-2002, 01:19 PM	#2
Neb Account deleted by Request Join Date: May 17, 2001 Location: . Age: 38 Posts: 8,802	The thought behind the making of the "Anti-Cult" law seems to be good enough, but to me it seems that the execution is flawed.... Perhaps a law against actively trying to "convert" people to one's faith or encouraging others to try to "convert" people....

02-23-2002, 01:57 PM	#3
khazadman User suspended until [Feb13] Join Date: December 6, 2001 Location: the south side of ol virginny Age: 62 Posts: 1,172	so the french government is saying its citizens are so weak minded they they can't PROTECT THEMSELVES from the insidious influence of these churches.more proof of government out of control.and any law that attempts to control religious freedom is an evil law.and i'm not what you would call religous. this is just one step away from actions like taking children from the parents who attend these congregations.it would be to protect them after all.can't have these people thinking for themselves. government that governs best governs least

02-23-2002, 07:59 PM	#8
Moiraine Anubis Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Up in the Freedomland Alps Age: 59 Posts: 2,474	Uh-uh ... What, I don't show my nose in here for a week, and bing, you call flames to my beloved country ?!? Yozza, this law you are referring to was actually aimed at sects, the trigger of it being the mass murder of cultists of the "Temple Solaire" sect, but not only that. There has been the matter of the "Mandarom" sect also, which I know a bit better, having a cousin belonging to that sect ... It's 2 AM here, a bit late for me to do serious talk about sects - seeya tomorrow. __________________ [img]\"http://grumble.free.fr/img/romuald.gif\" alt=\" - \" /><br /><br />The missing link between ape and man is us.

02-23-2002, 08:34 PM	#9
andrewas Harper Join Date: October 2, 2001 Location: Aberdeen, Scotland Age: 42 Posts: 4,774	quote: Originally posted by Moiraine: Uh-uh ... What, I don't show my nose in here for a week, and bing, you call flames to my beloved country ?!? Yozza, this law you are referring to was actually aimed at sects, the trigger of it being the mass murder of cultists of the "Temple Solaire" sect, but not only that. There has been the matter of the "Mandarom" sect also, which I know a bit better, having a cousin belonging to that sect ... It's 2 AM here, a bit late for me to do serious talk about sects - seeya tomorrow. If this law is being aimed at the kind of cult that induces people to commit suicide for there beliefs - like that one centred around a starship hiding behind the hale-bop comet - then id be all for it. But it sounds like its being applied against the mainstream religions as well. Which is not a Good Thing at all. Not that im a fan of religion myself - but people have the right to choose. __________________ [img]\"http://www.sighost.us/members/Zvijer/andrewas.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

02-23-2002, 09:17 PM	#10
Yorick Very Mad Bird Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam) Age: 52 Posts: 9,246	quote: Originally posted by Moiraine: Uh-uh ... What, I don't show my nose in here for a week, and bing, you call flames to my beloved country ?!? Yozza, this law you are referring to was actually aimed at sects, the trigger of it being the mass murder of cultists of the "Temple Solaire" sect, but not only that. There has been the matter of the "Mandarom" sect also, which I know a bit better, having a cousin belonging to that sect ... It's 2 AM here, a bit late for me to do serious talk about sects - seeya tomorrow. Not at all. I love your country. [img]smile.gif[/img] I just don't like that law. It worries me. Sounds like it worries French Evangelical Christians too from the sound of the article. It's not the first time French Protestants have had a hard time in France - hence the Richelieu/Huguenot references. [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ http://www.hughwilson.com

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