Letter from an Australian Police Officer.

[Iron_Ranger]

Originally posted by Davros: LOL - reads twice - wipes grin away to be serious - Magik defends his guns and while I don't agree with him I respect his right to his opinion. He has an opinion that my country (yes IR - please to note my nationality) has made an error in judgement. His post was somthing he found that he thought supported his case. It turned out (despite all disclaimers otherwise) to be something that I suspect he would now rather wish he hadn't posted because depite all claims to the contrary by your good self, it has looked rather foolish. Please don't pretend IR that if an anti-gun supported had posted a "Letter from an American Policemen" that had been similarly thoroughly debunked, that they would have escaped without a fair amount of ribbing on their blunder. I think in our hearts we know that would not be the case. But hey - bear arms, arm bears, ram bears even - but develop a little perspective pal - and as Rokken said - lighten up.

So whats your point? I still stand by my fist post. And as MagiK said, he never endorsed the letter as being true. I still say people are too over zealous about it. And as for me devloping perspective, I would ask you not to pretend you know such things about me. Anyway, I am done with this thread, as its pretty clear that its going no where.

[madjim]

Both Australia and Great Britain have had a dramatic rise in crime - and in gun related crime since "their bans". I have read that in Australia the crime of what is called in the United States "home invasion" has risen dramatically since the ban has taken effect. Yeah I can go dig up the statistics but I wont waste my time trying to preach to resident aliens and or Europeans that have already given away their right of self defense. So you folks that fear the gun stay behind locked doors and alarms and pray 911 works - as for me I'll be-a-waiting the criminals with old reliable - my winchester 1200.

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Lord of Alcohol: I think MagiK should have to eat crow, he did post it believing it, sorry Ray crow might be good on the grill [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Poor MagiK! LOL...uh, we have a surplus here.... [img]smile.gif[/img] Apparently the whole city is overrun! LOL

TEEHEE! Good thing MagiK's a good sport! [img]smile.gif[/img] Oh and uh, this IS off topic so we can continue the discussion elsewhere if necessary!

[ 01-15-2003, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

[antryg]

Originally posted by Lord of Alcohol: I think MagiK should have to eat crow, he did post it believing it, sorry Ray crow might be good on the grill [img]tongue.gif[/img]

No worries mate! Toss a crow on the barbie.

Honestly I don't know who the "policeman" who wrote this is or if it is hoax. I also don't have any first hand knowledge of the site which "debunks". With that said I don't think that saying you can't trust the way the statistics are interpeted and then interpeting them a different way is fair either. I looked in my cynic's dictionary and found this definition of statistics. STATISTICS: the apllication of mathmatics to prove anything you want.

[Vaskez]

Originally posted by MagiK: Found this, and thought it interesting. From: Ed Chenel, a police officer in Australia. Hi Yanks, I thought you all would like to see the real figures from Down Under. It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by a new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by our own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year results are now in: Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent, Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent; Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)! In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. (Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not and criminals still possess their guns!) While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since the criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed. There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the elderly. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in "successfully ridding Australian society of guns." You won't see this data on the American evening news or hear your governor or members of the state Assembly disseminating this information. The Australian experience proves it. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws affect only the law-abiding citizens. Take note Americans, before it's to late! Yeah, anecdotal evidence is the least trustworthy, but it is still one of those things that make you say Hmmmmm! (to quote a tv talk show host from the 90's)

Sounds like a load of bollocks to me. Look at the figures for number of gun related deaths in a year in the USA and the number in England. USA has roughly 4.5 times the population but something like 300 times the no. of gun-related deaths. Hmmmm!

[Davros]

Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: quote: Originally posted by Davros: LOL - reads twice - wipes grin away to be serious - Magik defends his guns and while I don't agree with him I respect his right to his opinion. He has an opinion that my country (yes IR - please to note my nationality) has made an error in judgement. His post was somthing he found that he thought supported his case. It turned out (despite all disclaimers otherwise) to be something that I suspect he would now rather wish he hadn't posted because depite all claims to the contrary by your good self, it has looked rather foolish. Please don't pretend IR that if an anti-gun supported had posted a "Letter from an American Policemen" that had been similarly thoroughly debunked, that they would have escaped without a fair amount of ribbing on their blunder. I think in our hearts we know that would not be the case. But hey - bear arms, arm bears, ram bears even - but develop a little perspective pal - and as Rokken said - lighten up.

So whats your point? I still stand by my fist post. And as MagiK said, he never endorsed the letter as being true. I still say people are too over zealous about it. And as for me devloping perspective, I would ask you not to pretend you know such things about me. Anyway, I am done with this thread, as its pretty clear that its going no where.[/QUOTE]Don't worry IR - somehow I didn't expect you would see the point.

And as for me - I stand by what I posted as well - so lighten up.

[Donut]

Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: You people are far to over zealous about this. MagiK likes having gun ownsership, you dont, deal with it. No need to make little 'witty' remarks to 'put someone in their place' cause it just makes you look foolish really.

I have no problem with people being in favour of guns and I wouldn't waste my time trying to persuade them otherwise. But I won't allow lies to be put forward as the truth without challenging it. Now you need to deal with that.

That's the way the NRA works, a 30 minute TV advert using Australia to 'prove' that gun control increases crime was shown on US TV. This led the Australian Government to ask that all reference to Australia be removed from NRA propaganda.

If you do a google search on "Ed Chenel" you get about 62 links. Only 2 of those sites expose this letter for the fraud that it is. The other 60 are pro-gun sites which put it forward as being real. Many exort you to 'email this to everyone you know'. Like the 'Switzerland myth' it will not go away.

Originally posted by Rokenn: quote: Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: You people are far to over zealous about this. MagiK likes having gun ownsership, you dont, deal with it. No need to make little 'witty' remarks to 'put someone in their place' cause it just makes you look foolish really.

Unlike all the gun owners that like to state that we that do not own guns are wimps and should not even think about staring a family, since we refuse to protect our property or loved ones using a firearm.

Lighten up Iron.[/QUOTE]I don't know any gun owners that think that everyone should own them, or should have to. I am sure there are those who do, and they are just as wrong to force guns on someone who doesnt want them as those who try to take them away from people.

Originally posted by Luvian: Sure, if you look int he short term, crime might increase a little, but the goal of such laws is to prevent more people getting guns. You know those teenager who go crazy and kill people at their school, well... they will have problem getting agun, now. It won't stop everyone from getting weapons, but I figure it will stop most small criminals and gang thugs from getting some.

Umm not to point out the obvious or anyting....teenages taking guns to school to kill people is already illegal...why do you need ANOTHER law against it?? Why not just enforce the ones you have on the books? And maybe hold parents accountable for the actions of their children? ...

Originally posted by Davros: LOL - reads twice - wipes grin away to be serious - Magik defends his guns and while I don't agree with him I respect his right to his opinion. He has an opinion that my country (yes IR - please to note my nationality) has made an error in judgement. His post was somthing he found that he thought supported his case. It turned out (despite all disclaimers otherwise) to be something that I suspect he would now rather wish he hadn't posted because depite all claims to the contrary by your good self, it has looked rather foolish. Actually I am still glad I posted it. As I said I am currently researching some numbers on Australia and I am finding discrepancies in numbers..those numbers reported by Politicians and those reported by individual police. I find it interesting that the numbers the politicians post seem to prove their point while those numbers being reported by police seem to indicate they are wrong....I know why the ploticians might lie, and am trying to figure out why the police would have motive to skew things...as I said..Im still researching and may have more info later. As for Jolly old England. Im actually not against you all having gun bans. Your country did not get founded by a bunch of roudy individualists who decided to write a constitution gaurenteeing the people the right to bear arms. Your country, your laws, your choice Please don't pretend IR that if an anti-gun supported had posted a "Letter from an American Policemen" that had been similarly thoroughly debunked, that they would have escaped without a fair amount of ribbing on their blunder. I think in our hearts we know that would not be the case. You are right here, there is much angst on both sides of the issue. What I found offensive was the attempt to make it look like I was saying something I did not. And the attempt to make it look like I was a fool or coward for actually standing by what I posted (that I could not verify the source or accuracy of the post). I never stated the "letter" was accurate or correct, only that I found it interesting and that it had made me think. But hey - bear arms, arm bears, ram bears even - but develop a little perspective pal - and as Rokken said - lighten up.

Just a general note to all: While I did not use smilies in my previous post, I was not po'd about Dav and Rokens comments, I was just pointing out the facts. If I were angry I would have used the angry icons [img]smile.gif[/img] that is what they are there for afterall.