My Party -- FINALLY

[pritchke]

Originally posted by Aerich: Thief, Druid, and Illusionist can all wait for a while - the bard can cover mage spells AND thief skills. You get pick pockets naturally, and you can use an Invisibility potion or spell to scout and Knock to open locks that you can't smash. The only glaring lack is some non-damaging way to detect traps - not so bad in the beginning, but the poison, confusion, paralyzation, and petrifying traps can really get you down (lvl 5 of Dragon's Eye and beyond).

For the traps there is a wand that detects traps once per day. I believe it is in the possession of the lead Orc in the mill so found very early in the game (don't think it is a random item). Since there are not a ton of traps early on the wand will be enough since it works the same as the cleric spell "Find Traps". The only problem then is disarming the ones found in chest, the bard can always use mirror image to overcome this problem.

[ 09-30-2004, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

[Dancing Virginia]

I'm pretty sure that is a random item b/c I went through that section on my ill-fated, pre-HoW attempt at IWD and I didn't find it. Perhaps I'll have good luck this time.

Oh, btw, nice tip on the Mirror Image. Never would have thought of that...

Also, yay for scroll cases! Yay for better graphics! HoW rocks already and I haven't even finished the Orc cave yet. Can't imagine what the Vale will be like.

xoxo,
Cary

[NobleNick]

...Thief, Druid, and Illusionist can all wait for a while - the bard can cover mage spells AND thief skills. You get pick pockets naturally, and you can use an Invisibility potion or spell to scout and Knock to open locks that you can't smash. The only glaring lack is some non-damaging way to detect traps - not so bad in the beginning, but the poison, confusion, paralyzation, and petrifying traps can really get you down (lvl 5 of Dragon's Eye and beyond).

Aerich,

Ah, yes, tis a great day for a wee bit of friendly DISAGREEMENT! ~grin~

First off, even with the Bard covering rogue and Mage duties (I *DO* agree with that), the character that is going to cause you the most pain, by virtue of not being there, is the Thief, not the Cleric. Now you can work around that, as you and pritchke have pointed out (nice one about the wand, pritchke!); but it won't be fun (see your own comments, above, about petrification, et. al.).

In my advice to Cary, I was trying to balance the early game pain of not having a Thief against the late game frustration of having a Fighter(9)/Thief(30-something) when you stopped collecting Thief benefits at somewhere around level 18. I dualed F(9)-->Thief and think I did the right thing; even so, I am "wasting" expo on this character, since she stopped improving as a Thief long ago and I still have a lots of game play left (nearing end of TotLM).

Next, the Fighter/Cleric: This gal should definitely not DC before F(9), for two reasons. First off, low level Clerics are almost useless as healers. They are much more valuable for buffing, bashing and curing arcane ailments, for which the good spells come later, and are really not essential to early and mid-game play. Having an extra Fighter (instead of a low level Cleric) will save you almost as much damage as the Cleric would heal. So you don't save much by DCing early. (you do, however, want to DC in time to have a good Cleric before you hit HoW, where a good Cleric *IS* essential.)

Second (and more importantly) staying on as Fighter and getting the extra HP and stacking PP in the right weapons will give you a kick-assassin Fighter/Cleric. Make no mistake, when you get to HoW your Cleric WILL be engaged in melee... a lot. Might as well be good at it; and 9 Fighter levels is a pittance of expo to pay to have the expertise and HP!

The Fighter/Illusionist: I have to agree with you, again, Aerich: a Fighter(13)/Illusionist would be an *AWESOME* character! I call this character a "Battle Mage," and I have several similar characters in a party I am not playing at the moment. Think of someone who can cast Mirror Image, Blur, and Stoneskin on herself, summon help, then don armor and and wade in with 5 PP in two-handed axe and something like 4 or 5 attacks per Round. YIKES!! Watch out for the flying chunks of Neo-Orog!!

But, given that we were only striving for a tough Mage who won't wilt when confronted by the occasional Troll who seeps through the front ranks, and who doubles as an EXCELLENT ranged warrior (if you stack your points right, Cary); DCing at Fighter(7) is acceptable. (Clvl 9 would be better.) Yes, the Bard will cover Mage duties O.K., so Cary can go for the Battle Mage if she wants (neat character!); but it is certainly not necessary in her Fighter-heavy party, and having the extra Mage-power earlier would probably be more fun.

That's my 2 cents worth.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 09-30-2004, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[NobleNick]

Cary,

You slipped in a post while I was composing my last.

I'm pretty sure that is a random item b/c I went through that section on my ill-fated, pre-HoW attempt at IWD and I didn't find it. Perhaps I'll have good luck this time.

Save before you go into the mill for the first time. If you don't get the wand, reload and try again with re-randomized treasure. (Make sure you save just BEFORE the FIRST time you enter the mill; and return to this save until successful.)

Also, yay for scroll cases! Yay for better graphics! HoW rocks already and I haven't even finished the Orc cave yet. Can't imagine what the Vale will be like.

...and yay for the alt-key highlighting button, and the better gameplay, and the improved Druid, and the vastly improved Bard, and... Another satisfied HoW disciple begins preaching the Gospel... Like I said over two years ago: HoW is worth the price even if you never play beyond IWD!

As Aerich indicated, Cary, you hit the nail on the head: A power gamer is someone who stacks the deck as favorably as possible, with little or no regard as to how a classic roleplayer would justify such a collection of super-normal characters. Classic power gamer strategies: Re-roll for 45 minutes to get super stats on a character; repeat for the other 5; lounge around monster infested areas, sleeping and fighting to pump up your party's expo; DC Fighters at very high levels to build uber characters (like the Battle Mage).

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[Aerich]

I can confirm that the Wand of Trap Detection is random. You can also get a dagger, a cloak, a shield, and maybe a couple other things.


Part of the little disagreement, NobleNick, may be because I've played the last couple times on Insane - that means I hit lvl 9 with fighters sometime in Dragon's Eye or shortly thereafter - for sure in DE if I rest for a wee bit on the 3rd lvl or avoid taking out the summoner quickly on lvl 4. That means you get thief skills round about the time the traps start getting nasty. I forgot to take difficulty level into account.

I guess the point is that there are plenty of options (most quite good) when you have the capability to dual 4 different characters in a single party. Either the cleric or the thief should be dualed at lvl 9 or before; I agree about lvl 9 cleric dualing, btw, but the cleric should definitely not wait until lvl 13 to dual. The focus here was that a thief can wait to dual if you have a bard and cleric (or druid, I suppose) in the party. It isn't easy, and can be frustrating, but it can be done - in fact, I did the last two levels of Dragon's Eye and the majority of the Severed Hand without a thief - but I had massive clerical power to take the strain off.

I happen to disagree about with the statement that an extra fighter will save you as much damage as a cleric would. It's not necessarily about saving damage, it's about what you do once you've taken it. I personally find it a lot nicer to enter combat with fully healed tanks, if I can manage it. And it's not always that easy to find a safe spot to rest.

Additionally, that extra fighter isn't strictly necessary - just make sure the bard casts area of effect hindering spells (Grease, Web). You don't need the bard to contribute a Magic Missile or Acid Arrow, unless you are up against trolls or weapon-immune undead.

[Dancing Virginia]

Whaaaaaaaa!!!! Too much information! Can't digest it all!

[NobleNick]

Cary,

Sorry about the confusion. You've got a GREAT party; and if you do anything close to what Aerich or I have suggested, you'll do fine. Go play Icewind Dale.

Aerich,

I can confirm that the Wand of Trap Detection is random. You can also get a dagger, a cloak, a shield, and maybe a couple other things.

Good to hear: I was wondering. I was going on faith, since I haven't actually found it myself.

Part of the little disagreement, NobleNick, may be because I've played the last couple times on Insane - that means I hit lvl 9 with fighters sometime in Dragon's Eye or shortly thereafter - for sure in DE if I rest for a wee bit on the 3rd lvl or avoid taking out the summoner quickly on lvl 4. That means you get thief skills round about the time the traps start getting nasty. I forgot to take difficulty level into account.

Well, now, here is the crux of the problem, you scoundrel: Why don't you play on Normal like the rest of us mere mortals? Playing on Insane is just, well... Insane! Keep going on like this and before you know it you'll be hob-nobbing with the likes of Dundee Slaytern and his ilk, and talking about how you soloed a Mage through IWD/HoW/TotLM on HoF. I'm warning you: It's a sad road to travel! ~wink~

Seriously, I think this is why you need so much Cleric power; and why your Cleric, therefore, is very important for you to have early on. I reiterate my earlier assertion that an extra Fighter stretches out the time you can go between rests, by killing the enemy before they can harm you. This would be especially true for a excellently skilled ranged-weapon party, such as Cary has, and on NORMAL difficulty (or CORE, I guess it is, with HoF installed). "The best defense is a good offense."

I happen to disagree about with the statement that an extra fighter will save you as much damage as a cleric would. It's not necessarily about saving damage, it's about what you do once you've taken it. I personally find it a lot nicer to enter combat with fully healed tanks, if I can manage it. And it's not always that easy to find a safe spot to rest.

Agreed on the last two sentences. I, too, would like to have every last HP restored before entering combat; but I realize that this is definitely a luxury most parties do without, unless they have a Bard[11+]. However, with 4 Fighters *AND* a Paladin, Cary can rotate tank duty among **FIVE** frontline heavies. This should allow her party to travel much farther between rests than most parties could with the normal two Fighters and a Cleric.

Additionally, that extra fighter isn't strictly necessary - just make sure the bard casts area of effect hindering spells (Grease, Web). You don't need the bard to contribute a Magic Missile or Acid Arrow, unless you are up against trolls or weapon-immune undead.

Heh, heh, heh, heh actually, we are about 3 Fighters beyond what's necessary. That's what makes this so fun: It's extreme overkill: power gaming heaven!!

Agreed on the Bard. She'll make a good stand-in for Mage. But when she hits clvl 11, tune her to "War Chant of the Sith," crank the volume and break off the knob! If my Bard EVER uses her excellent weapons, it is because the party is in very deep kimshee. War Chant is just so powerful that I keep my Bard singing if even one of my warriors is still in his right mind and swinging a weapon.

(Cary, One more piece of unsolicited advice. Pinch your pennies and make the "Bardic Horn of Valhalla" one of your first purchases [if not THE first major purchase]. This is one of the finest pieces of equipment your party will ever own. If you can acquire it before DE, it will make your travels there so-o-o much easier: Berserkers ROCK in the early to mid-game, lose a little umph in late IWD [but are always useful to some extent], and regain steam in HoW and TotLM.)

I guess the point is that there are plenty of options (most quite good) when you have the capability to dual 4 different characters in a single party. Either the cleric or the thief should be dualed at lvl 9 or before; I agree about lvl 9 cleric dualing, btw, but the cleric should definitely not wait until lvl 13 to dual. The focus here was that a thief can wait to dual if you have a bard and cleric (or druid, I suppose) in the party. It isn't easy, and can be frustrating, but it can be done - in fact, I did the last two levels of Dragon's Eye and the majority of the Severed Hand without a thief - but I had massive clerical power to take the strain off.

Yes, Cary has a very strong and versatile party in the making, that will be tolerant of any "less than optimal" (from a power gamer perspective) choices she might take.

Congrats on doing DE and SH without a Thief! Like you, this is not something I would look forward to doing. Frustrating is right. And here, again, I see that this choice led you to more reliance on the Cleric in the early game. I stand by my assertion that DCing to Thief and holding off on the Cleric is less painful than vice versa. However, I admit that none of my parties have ever gone long without either: I've previously designed parties to have two DC Clerics, so that one character can DC into Cleric when another DCs out (a strategy that has paid off handsomely in HoW and TotLM); and my one mc character (to give the party infravision) is a Gnome Thief/Illusionist.

Yeah, I already hinted that clvl 13 would probably be too late to DC to Cleric, if there is only one in the party; so, given that, maybe clvl 9 would be a better choice (but not any lower). Though not an "uber" character, a Fighter[9]/Cleric[X] with either sling or close-in weapon maxed is certainly very respectable.

There is another option, not yet mentioned, that is quite viable for a power gamer doing the entire game and expansions, or working in HoF mode. However it could be a bit tough for some to stomach from a roleplay perspective:

Instead of: DC Fighter[9]/Illusionist -and- DC Fighter[9]/Thief

Do this: Thief -and- (same as before) DC Fighter[9]/Thief

After the Fighter[9] DCs to Thief, discard the straight Thief and add the newly rolled DC Fighter[9]/Illusionist. Your Fighter/Illusionist will be over 9 levels behind the rest of the group; but it is amazing how fast she will catch up. She should be ready to DC well before you hit HoW.

The 9 Fighter levels of expo the party loses on a character using this technique seems like a lot in the early game, but it is really a pittance. The only thing that should keep one from doing this is if they can't justify it from a roleplay perspective.

A "softer" way of doing this is to create the original 6-person party, plus the straight Thief. Then party without the Thief, until you need her, then return to Kuldahar and exchange characters for as long as the Thief is needed. This wastes less expo on the Thief (whom you will eventually not need) and is more palatable from a roleplay perspective (hiring "expert" help when you need it, while a core party member recuperates in town). I can see the core group schlogging back to Kuldahar with all the weapons and armor they've captured in the VoS; then returning with the Thief to open bypassed chests and add the contents to armor and weapons they couldn't fit in on the first trip; then return with the second load of booty before picking up the core member again.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Having completed IWD and HoW (on Normal), and being close to finishing ToTLM, I feel I have learned some valuable lessons. Implementing those lessons --> My next party destined for IWD/HoW/TotLM would probably look something like this:

1.) DC Fighter[13]/Neutral_Cleric (***** Mace, *** Sling)
2.) DC Fighter[13]/Druid (***** Scimitar, *** Sling)
3a.) Gnome Thief [stops adventuring with party after (5.) DCs]
3b.) DC Fighter[9]/Illusionist (**** Axe, ***LongBow)
4.) DC Fighter[9]/Good_Cleric (***** Flail, ** Sling)
5.) DC Fighter[9]/Thief (**** LongSword, *** LongBow)
6.) Bard (*whatever, *whatever: doesn't matter; she will not use weapons)

All DC characters have natural STR = DEX = CON = 18; and other prime reqs maxed for characters to which they will DC. The Fighter/Druid will be the toughest, needing a total roll of at least 90.

Rationale: Hold all characters as long as is practical, to max Fighter HP bonuses, stack PPs as high as possible, and basically groom characters to be very tough hombres for the later game and expansions. Starting from the bottom:

Bard (character 6.) fills in for Mage in early game. Sings and casts an occasional spell in late game.

Need the DC Thief (5.) early, to avoid too much lost expo on Character 3a.)

Need first DC Cleric (4.) early enough to be well developed Cleric[12+] by start of HoW.

Thief (3a.) This hireling removes the early game pain of no Thief. Adventures with the party occasionally until character (5.) DCs; possibly after if the team needs infravision.

DC Illusionist (3b.) is not quite a "Battle Mage," but sports most of the virtues of a veteran Fighter and full Mage. Maxed out in bow and 4 star proficiency in close-in weapon. Heh, heh, heh, enemies jumping past the front lines to seek out soft spell casters are in for a very rude surprise.

DC Druid (2.) has all the benefits of veteran Fighter, except must use sling. Pick Scimitar for close in weapon, to reduce party's Priest-heavy dependency on crushing weapons.

DC Cleric (1.) Full Fighter and back-up Cleric. By the time the party hits TotLM, his Cleric skills should be well developed, only very slightly behind character 4. (In addition to a smattering of curative spells, the Clerics load up about 4 to 5 deep on "Recitation" and "Prayer." In tough fights: one Cleric casts Prayer and the other casts Recitation. These spells stack with each other and with the War Chant; making the entire team appear to the enemy as "Tanks of Slaying." The pair alternate spells, so they can perform this spectacular spell stacking feat TEN or more times between rests. Also, both can "raise dead;" so the party can always restore itself unless both of these very tough guys go down.)

If I gave in just slightly to roleplaying considerations, an alternate party make-up would have me trading in Characters 1.) and 3b.) as follows:

1.) Paladin (**LongSword, **LongBow)
3b.) MC Gnome Cleric/Illusionist

This gives the party infravision and variety but is a weaker build in my eyes.

Hope you found this interesting and not too long of a read.

Edit: Now you didn't expect me to get that long hurking post letter-perfect on the first attempt, did you?

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 10-04-2004, 11:49 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]