This beggars belief - sex change for 12 Y.O.

[Yorick]

This is bogus man.

Gender/sex is purely a physical distinction. The only mental differences are whatever hormones/chemicals etc have affected the physical brain.

The rest is cultural conditioning and expectation or deviation from it.

Change the definition, don't mutilate kids so they feel more "normal".

Men can be sensitive, talk about feelings, be soft and all "poofy" and yet still be by definition, manly heterosexual men, no less masculine than the next man. Women can be strong, assertive, man-like 'tomboys' and yet still be all woman and very feminine.

Anytime a person feels they are "a man trapped in a woman's body" it highlights how our (in this case Australia's) society's stereotypes create behavioural straightjackets.

Helping a person feel accepted for whatever quirky mental personality traits they possess is far, far preferable to mutilating their body to continue reinforcing this bizarre idea that one's gender is what one thinks, not what one's body is.

Give me a girly-guy or a tomboy any day of the week. They're welcome at my table without having to surgically change who they are.

And yeah, the father has every right to try and change his daughter's mind. He's her father and she's a very young 12. That's his job. The court's decision should be thrown out.

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by TheDutkanator Take a second a listen to a child. Every single one of them knows EXACTLY what they want.

Which is also often EXACTLY wrong for them, which is why they have parents who legally make relevant decisions for them.

A child may EXACTLY want cotton candy three meals a day, and EXACTLY not want to brush their teeth. They may EXACTLY want to only drink Coca Cola, not that stupid water stuff.

The parent is there so that at age 18 they aren't toothless and obese, and can start making informed and educated decisions about how to treat their bodies.

Yes, being only 12 makes a difference.

[wellard]

Yaaahhh Yorick

G'day fella

Nice points you make

[Yorick]

Heya bro! Good to see you!

[Yorick]

I've been reading a bit more on the case, and it seems the mother and father are divorced, that the child is a pawn, and the mother has allegedly been feeding this. Some cousins accuse the mother of "brainwashing" the girl, systematically suggesting she'd be better of as a man.

The treatment the court has allowed is hormone treatment. She cannot have surgery to remove her womb/genitals until she is 18. The hormone treatment is "reversible" but stops her hips and boobs growing naturally.

This sounds more like an insecure kid being manipulated by a vengeful mother than anything else.

[Larry_OHF]

It has been a while since I've been around to give my opinion on anything, but I definately wanted to speak up on this one and agree with what Firestormalpha and Yorick have said, which best represent my own opinion.

I also must point out that Aelia Jusa makes a strong case for the other side so I have to give due credit for that.

To add my own words to this thread, I took a phsychology class a couple years ago that had a case study about this very issue and was followed by questions as to how we would treat the case and then what the doctor did. The person who was considered transgender did not want to be transgender and wanted to be the sex that his body told him he was. The doctor was successful in helping the man get the "woman" mentality out of his mind so that he could live as a normal man! (If you need me to go look up the case in my book, I'll try to find it. It was in my Behavior Psych manual.)

By the way (to take this to another level of discussion)...do transgender people have the obligation to tell their potential sexual partner that they used to be the other way, and had work done? I'd hate to be married to a woman and find out on my own years later...(I've heard of at least one instance where that happened...poor guy).

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Larry- I would actually love to see that case, if it's not too much trouble. Also, there's no "obligation" to tell the potential sexual partner anything of that nature. Actually, until recently, the "treatment" involved lying about the treatment... which is not good and more and more people are "out" as transgender. But thinking about it logically, I don't see any reason why there would be any such obligation. "Oh, honey, by the way, my innie used to be an outie. Would you pass the sugar?"

[Yorick]

Larry you raise an interesting angle. If there is a disconnect between the person's perceived gender and their physical sex, it seems the prevalent thought is that the self-perception is somehow infallible, and that the biology must be a "mistake".

In actual fact, many of our perceptions are quite often mistaken. Our society is trying to fix peoples minds in other areas - depression, ADHD, addiction etc etc.

If a person is walking around with the perception that they are Napoleon, we would objectively say they are not, that they are perhaps crazy, and try to help them adjust to living in the 21st century as NOT being Napoleon, rather than change the entire world to fit their perception.

So if someone is perceiving themselves to be a woman, when they are objectively not a woman, why are they so often encouraged to change their physical world rather than their mental one? Obviously the operations are the last resort... but still. We all have erroneous self perception. We NEED others to point out "you know, you're not a superhero bro... you're actually quite an ass" so that our perception of reality matches objective reality.

Part of the issue may be that what I'm presenting is a modernist (or post-post-modernist) view, whereas the idea that self-perception trumps all is post-modernist dogma which is so prevalent in academia.

Is the prevalence of sex-change operations a result or the prevalence of post-modernist thought?

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar Larry- I would actually love to see that case, if it's not too much trouble. Also, there's no "obligation" to tell the potential sexual partner anything of that nature. Actually, until recently, the "treatment" involved lying about the treatment... which is not good and more and more people are "out" as transgender. But thinking about it logically, I don't see any reason why there would be any such obligation. "Oh, honey, by the way, my innie used to be an outie. Would you pass the sugar?"

I would actually suggest that NOT telling a potential life partner about your sex-change operation is a deal-breaker. Especially if the potential partner desires to procreate.

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Aelia Jusa Transgendered people believe that they are the opposite gender to that indicated by their sex organs. Literally that they are 'women in men's bodies' or vice versa. It is not about 'relating better' to the opposite gender, they are the opposite gender (note that 'gender' is a psychological classification rather than 'sex' which is a physiological classification). They see gender reassignment surgery as correcting what they perceive to be this 'mistake' of biology. It allows them to live as the person that they believe they are rather than continuing to live as the 'wrong' gender. This is an extremely strong motivation. While you are technically correct that genetically they have not changed - surgery cannot change what chromosomes they have - in the ways that matter to them they have changed gender.

AH.. Aelia... If "gender" is the person's self perception, and having "gender realignment surgery" changes their sex to match their gender, then they haven't changed their gender at all, and the word "transgender" is actually a misnomer. If "gender" is mental, then it remains the same, while their "sex" is what changes.

I think the reality is that "gender" is not just a mental, and that the mind is part of the body. Mental and physical are inseparable and interconnected. Gender may well be a mental perception, but it is bound up with the person's physiology.