It's International Conscientious Objectors' Day!

[wellard]

Originally posted by Lanesra: quote: Originally posted by khazadman: They have a day celebrating cowardice?

I was against the war, don't ever make the mistake of thinking I'm a coward, two different things mate. [/QUOTE]I'm a *iraq* war supporter but I want to agree with you and others, It does take courage to stand against the tide of public opinion, to cop the "traitor, coward, commie ect" abuse.

The coward remark was a cheap shot.

[Chewbacca]

A lesson in courage:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/6181/applic.htm

[Epona]

During WWII men went to prison for refusing to go and fight - how does that equate with cowardice? They refused because, rightly or wrongly, they didn't want to go and kill German conscripts who had wives and children and lives much like their own.

Conscientious objectors were vilified and ostracised by their friends and neighbours, spat upon in the street, had their windows smashed, and many were tried and imprisoned. Standing up because they didn't want to go shoot people (whether for religious or personal reasons) was in no way an act of cowardice, I would argue it took a great deal of courage to go through that for what they believed in.

Incidentally, my Grandfather didn't fight in WWII, and didn't want to. His reasoning was much as I have outlined above - he was in no way a nazi sympathiser, but didn't believe that killing young conscripts was a useful thing to do (also he had a lot to say about the fact that the army had been used against strikers in the General Strike of 1926 in which he participated, then wanted those same workers to go die for them but that's not so relevant to my point). Fortunately due to a work injury he didn't have to take a stand that many people felt was their only option, so instead contributed to the war effort in a way that he was comfortable with, by being a firefighter in London during the blitz, and he saved many people's lives by doing so. How is that cowardly?

[Bardan the Slayer]

Muhammad Ali also refused to go to war due to moral/religious objections.

Had he accepted the draft, he would have been lauded as a military hero, and his 'service' would have consisted of being a PT instructor at an American Training Camp, fighting exhibition bouts. He also would have been allowed leave to defend his world title. Much like Joe Louis in WWII, in fact.

Instead, he refused to be drafted, was threatened with jail, bankrupted, illegally prevented from being able to practise his trade, has his world title illegally stripped from him. More than this, he didn't do it quietly, but shouted out his reasons to America, knowing that when they heard him say "Why should I drop bombs and bullets on brown people in Vietnam while so-called Negro people in Louisville are treated like dogs?", they would hate him more than any public figure.

Which one took more courage?

Muhammad Ali, who can never, ever be accused by anyone of mental or physical cowardice, and someone who objected to the Vietnam war.

Ack, the very fact people are having to give examples of brave CO's is annoying me. It's like having to post to explain that the sun is rather hot. I'm outta here. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I would never label a CO as a coward, thats way harsh...however I would (conditionally) consider the person unworthy of liberty, since they are unwilling to earn it. I know that is also harsh..but many a CO lives in liberty now because someone gave their life in the fight to ensure their ability to live in liberty.

Yeah yeah, its all patriotic clap trap that means nothing to many, but I do truely honor those who fought to make my country free...or at least as free as it is.

I also know that in World War II many CO's volunteered to do support work to enable others to fight, these people at least contributed to their liberty...people who think being a CO means just being a no holds barred pacifist....well you get what ya pay for.

[ 05-17-2003, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Charlie]

I concientiously object to this thread being bought back up....Any Objections?

[Kaltia]

None here. [img]graemlins/whackya.gif[/img] BAD MAGIK!...Or Uncle M

[khazadman]

And how would the war have turned out if more men had gone co Epona? Bardan, the only way I could agree with holding a co status is in nations with compulory service. Since we here in the US don't have a draft, the co status is bogus. Chewbacca, if you don't respond to violence with violence you either get hurt or killed. So in some ways pacifism is not just cowardice, it's stupidity.

[Sigmar]

Originally posted by khazadman: Chewbacca, if you don't respond to violence with violence you either get hurt or killed. So in some ways pacifism is not just cowardice, it's stupidity.

Yes I am aware of the fact that I'm not Chewbacca but this last statement struck a nerve in me. First off I'd like to tell you about my grandfather who lived and died during the World War 2 era. He was a pacifist, against the war from day one and so he made a consciencious decision to not enlist as a soldier and fight the Nazi regieme. However, being a qualified doctor he offered to enlist as a medic, as long as he didn't have to carry any firearms whatsoever or participate in any combat. He wanted to ensure the well being of any injured personel he would come across (friend or foe as was the case with many WW2 medics).

This display of pacifism (or as you so callously described it, cowardice and stupidity) probably saved the lives of many men in the war, I say probably because we don't know what he did in the war exactly. He and his platoon were in their mobile transport when it exploded, no time to perform tune ups on the frontline is there?. I have read articles written my other WW2 veteran medics who described the ordeal they went through and their reasons for doing so. It is for these reasons I consider my grandfather (whom I obviously never had the privalage of meeting) a brave individual, why you ask?

He was willing to participate in something he didn't believe in so that he could provide medical assistance for those in need (some might call him a hypocrite, not me though, he didn't go to fight). He travelled to the front line of conflict and did not fight violence with violence (as you suggested), but instead helped his fellow man.

He hated the war, and he sacrificed his life because of his pacifist beliefs, not because of an elistment poseter which read "Your country needs you". "Why did I not choose to battle the Nazi regieme with guns and bullets" he explains in his will, "simply because they are men like I, who in any other circumstances could have been friends and colleagues of mine. They too have families. What right do any of us have to rid their families of them? None. The same applies to them". Not his exact words but what I remember, it was definitly along those lines.

Your comment shames his, as well as the sacrifices of many other individuals who were not willing to fight against the Nazis, but who were responsible for combatting the results of violence caused by the war by acting as medics and voluntary rescue workers (people who helped those affected by the war in its various forms, I.E air raids).

Personally it takes courage to follow your personal beliefs regardless of what they may be. It is however cowardly to support war simply because thats the popular choice, or to indeed support pacifism because again the majority of people are in favour of it. Doing something that isn't popular amongst the general public because of your personal convictions should not be considered an act of cowardice, its something which should be viewed with admiration.

In this case pacifism.

[ 05-18-2003, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Sigmar ]

[Melusine]

Originally posted by khazadman: Chewbacca, if you don't respond to violence with violence you either get hurt or killed.

And if you DO respond with violence, will you not get hurt or killed?
That's one of the worst excuses to call pacifists stupid that I've ever seen.

Sigmar, thanks for writing about your grandfather, I'm sorry he died before you could have met.