kazaa? Morhpeous? e-mule?...

[Harkoliar]

posted by bongleau ------------------------------- It's not the tool that's a problem; it's the use of the tool.

beautifully said.

[ 05-08-2003, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: Harkoliar ]

[Night Stalker]

First to clear some FUD. p2p is just a method of transfering files (note the lack of description of type) from one machine to another. In this reguard, it is no different than FTP, TFTP, HTTP, UUCP (unix to unix copy), rcp, or any of a host of other file transfer protocols. It is not similar to protocols like telnet, ssh, rsh, or the like, because it does not allow a user connection to be established on the remote host (outsiders cannot run files). It is also a network topology (layout). It is made up of a number of loosely connected, distributed 'stars'. Each machine in the 'network' only knows of the existance of machines directly connected to it, but is able to query the entire network though this loose distribution. This eliminates the requirement for DNS and routers, as each machine in the network acts as a client/server/router/database.

As said previously, the network is just a tool, and has as many legitimate uses as illegit ones.

Timber ... the prices of CDs were rising conssiderably before 'file-sharing' became popular on the 'Net. p2p just happens to be an easy target for their over priced lawyers (no, I don't believe all lawyers are over priced) to go after, rather than considdering that they may be causes to their lagging sales. This is a topic of another debate though.

Yorick ... I know this is a hot button for you. Copyright and IP are competly differnt topics than p2p though. I do understand and share your concern, because I have similar ones with the software that I write. While I believe the artists definatly deserve to be paid, the industry has been abusing its customers - to the detriment of both the customers and the artists. But, anyway, there are legit uses of p2p - even downloading mp3s. There is alot of public domain stuff out there that is hard to get through other channels. Some artists even use p2p as their distribution method, rather than go through the industry hassle. To paint everyone that uses p2p with the same brush is just unfair. Calling everyone that uses p2p thieves is similar to calling all black people [insert racial epithet] or all Frenchman [insert nationalistic slur].

[WillowIX]

Originally posted by FelixJaeger: Erm you guys seem to do a hell of a lot of flaming to anyone who uses these things. Sure it would be good if i had the money of a person with a full time job but i have to go to school, if i want to listen to some music i can be entitled to do it, if i choose to, and not be called a thief. I myself only use programs like this if i am recommended a band and do not want to rush out and buy their album, hell ill rush out and buy their album if i like them, but why should i waste money if i dont like them? Hmmn maybe its because ive had a crap day or maybe its because i shouldnt be called a thief that im saying this but if you want me to stop using KaZaA is it ok with you if i take up stealing cars to make up for all the money i have to waste buying the CD's of any bands my friends recommend to me? Sounds fair, doesn't it. Felix

As far as I can tell there is only one post in here that is a bit harsh, but you have to understand Yorick. This is his living and I would react the same if people treated it with this kind of disrespect. I have to disagree with you. You are not entitled to download songs from the net without paying. If you manufactured the next generation of computers, would I be entitled to take one for free simply because I can not afford one? That is not how society works.

[Night Stalker]

Well said Willow. While I think the Music industry is waaaaayyyyyy overpriced, entertainment is not a right. The Declaration of Independance does NOT say "All men have the right to Life, Liberty, and an infinite source of free music ...". Here's a novel concept to todays "I need everything, and now" society .... if you can't afford it - Go. With. Out.

[ 05-08-2003, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: Night Stalker ]

[Timber Loftis]

Harkoliar was right, that was well said bungleau. The programs have many uses, and I was not - and still am not - very educated on the p2p issue.

That said, Night Stalker, it may be true that CD and software prices were jacked up before p2p and before CD burners. However, piracy still existed -- I had friends who were very gifted at cracking games and even making distributable copies of those password keys many games came with during the late 80s and early 90s. That said, an evil industry still does not justify theft, I have learned. Fix the industry, don't resort to theft.

Felix, sorry, you are a thief. Plain and simple. Just because you can't afford your games and CDs doesn't give you the right to steal. Ask Jean Val Jean. It's okay -- I was a thief once too. I owned at least 30 cracked pirated games at one point in time -- hell, for many years I bought NO games, yet played many. I also stole in other ways, for sure. At one point in time, I considered it a moral imperative to steal from a corporation and/or the government at every given opportunity. The only theft I considered immoral was stealing from an individual. Of course my views changed and I grew into different phases of life.

So, I'm not saying you are evil, or bad, or that I don't like you. But, you are a thief.

[edit] To and too are not the same, though too is too much like to for me to type accurately sometimes.

[ 05-08-2003, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Night Stalker]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: That said, Night Stalker, it may be true that CD and software prices were jacked up before p2p and before CD burners. However, piracy still existed -- I had friends who were very gifted at cracking games and even making distributable copies of those password keys many games came with during the late 80s and early 90s. That said, an evil industry still does not justify theft, I have learned. Fix the industry, don't resort to theft.

True, piracy has existed in every industry since commerce was invented. My comment about the music industry's skyrocketing prices and falling sales was not about justifying it though. I was only pointing out that before 'piracy' became available to the masses, they were abusing their customers, and trying to blame lagging sales on the customers. p2p is just the current blame. I agree whole heartedly - fix the industry, don't resort to theft. But that is a whole other debate.

[edit] Congress though is more symathetic to industry though and not the masses.

[ 05-08-2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: Night Stalker ]

[WillowIX]

Originally posted by Night Stalker: [edit] Congress though is more symathetic to industry though and not the masses.

"Never bite the hand that feeds you". Something politicians is very good at.

I still feel the music industry is fighting the wrong battles. Targeting file sharing companies won´t solve their problems.

[FelixJaeger]

Originally posted by WillowIX: As far as I can tell there is only one post in here that is a bit harsh, but you have to understand Yorick. This is his living and I would react the same if people treated it with this kind of disrespect. I have to disagree with you. You are not entitled to download songs from the net without paying. If you manufactured the next generation of computers, would I be entitled to take one for free simply because I can not afford one? That is not how society works.

To be honest, I can download songs from the net without paying, it is my choice to, and I do pay for it through connection charges and by buying the album of that band if I like them.
The problem is, you take an expensive computer it is considered theft, if I download a song it is not, how about if someone wants a selection of songs on their computer, is it also not right to rip the songs from the CD's onto a computer as this is in fact copying it onto a comptuer and not using it for its intended use? Does this make them thieves as well?
I didnt mean to imply harshness I was trying to say there is a negative attitude towards it and its users even if they are people who do as I do.
So I'm a thief huh? So if I kill myself because you said that would that make you all murderers? I think the reason i posted was because I shouldn't be called a thief. I am innocent until proven otherwise and a comment will not change that.
Anyway if anyones offended by that well, what can I say...

[WillowIX]

Originally posted by FelixJaeger: To be honest, I can download songs from the net without paying, it is my choice to, and I do pay for it through connection charges and by buying the album of that band if I like them. You do not pay the artist his/her/their money through your connection fees. The problem is, you take an expensive computer it is considered theft, if I download a song it is not, how about if someone wants a selection of songs on their computer, is it also not right to rip the songs from the CD's onto a computer as this is in fact copying it onto a comptuer and not using it for its intended use? Does this make them thieves as well? The answer I got in another thread about copying your CDs to your hard drive was that it is not considered illegal, IF you do not share them. You do own the CD and therefore also the songs. I didnt mean to imply harshness I was trying to say there is a negative attitude towards it and its users even if they are people who do as I do. So I'm a thief huh? So if I kill myself because you said that would that make you all murderers? Very bad analogy Felix. You can´t compare them. That´s like calling a dog an elephant since they both have four legs. I think the reason i posted was because I shouldn't be called a thief. I am innocent until proven otherwise and a comment will not change that.I think this has been proved several times by the RIAA. And I think this will be proven further every day in the paper over the next months. Anyway if anyones offended by that well, what can I say...

[FelixJaeger]

Willow you seem to have neglected the fact that I said I buy the albums, how else am I supposed to pay them? Give all of my spare money to the bands I like even though most of them make more money in one week than I have seen in my entire life?
And no it's not a bad analogy, its just very extreme, but if I was offended easily, I may have gone and killed myself, you don't know my state of mind and then to be called that by a stranger could push someone too far. Hell i've been in too many fights and arguments for being called a thief when i'm not(even with teachers which means i lose automatically )