RED!

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

Trust me, you'll feel far better giving to those that don't have, than those who do.

[Mellagar]

Originally posted by Yorick: That's great for you Rob, but Africa is intimately connected to the west. Whether through ex-slave generations in America or off-the-boat immigrants to France, Britain, and America. Some in the west could be giving to their family's local area. Secondly, Africa is the worst area hit by AIDS, and seeing as the west has exploited Afrrica for generations and still benefits from the minerals and resources from Africa (diamonds etc) it'd be nice to do even a little thing to make sure the whole area doesn't die out wouldn't it? Thirdly it's not a charity. You're not giving money to anyone. You're just choosing to buy your normal stuff a particular way. Fourth, some of us regard the whole planet as our local area concern, not just our little area. I know that if they find a cure for aids in Africa, it'll be more than just Africans that get cured of aids won't it?

Is white guilt supposed make me think that I should route a coin from my pocket to give to others? I agree that America has its own ghettos, as does Europe, and China. I agree that its good to help other countries when in need, but eventually a people have to tend to their own needs. Now I'm not saying everyone should say forget them, but a country, like a child, has to be given a chance to grow on its own. Otherwise, you'll be forever supporting them. I find it interesting how profit finds niches wherever it can, even with this RED charity. But I still laugh over this AIDS nonsense. A little protection, and prevention on the part of the people there can go a long way. Now, am I donating to help the child, who was given no options and was born with this problem, the adults, who damn well knew better, knew the risks, or is it for this supposed guilt trip dating back to the slave trade etc, or to prevent something like this from happening again? So buy the iPod, the cell phone, the palm pilot, whatever it is you want, and let the proceeds go to whomever in the poverty stricken lands of wherever.

[Mellagar]

On a side note, how many of the goods bought are from cheap foreign labor, with the money, a seemingly small amount, given to a charity?

[Leonis]

Originally posted by wellard: You know Leonis reading this makes me realize how little I do for charity, sure I tut tut every night watching the news, argue with people about what should be done to make the world better ..... But actual useful stuff like donating money? Very little just a few dollars to the Salvation Army and some animal rights groups. Yorick, Leonis I will talk to the financial controller tonight about donating more [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Wellard... I'm so glad I got to meet you, even if if I never do again (I hope I do) I know a least a little more about who you are. And you're a great man. My whole conviction was that I felt like a hypocrite. I can talk and talk and talk, but what am I DOING? Well, that's changing. I took steps as I was posting here. First and simplest, I'm sponsoring a child again. (I sponsored a Brazilian child years ago, Roberto G De Sousa, to the point where my sponsorship was cancelled because he and his family were doing well) I have neglected it since then, but am far more financial now, and realise I cannot excuse myself anymore. I can't stop there but it's a good place to start. I have requested a Philippino child because of my experience in that country. I'll keep you posted...

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Mellagar: Is white guilt supposed make me think that I should route a coin from my pocket to give to others? I agree that America has its own ghettos, as does Europe, and China. I agree that its good to help other countries when in need, but eventually a people have to tend to their own needs. Now I'm not saying everyone should say forget them, but a country, like a child, has to be given a chance to grow on its own. Otherwise, you'll be forever supporting them. I find it interesting how profit finds niches wherever it can, even with this RED charity. But I still laugh over this AIDS nonsense. A little protection, and prevention on the part of the people there can go a long way. Now, am I donating to help the child, who was given no options and was born with this problem, the adults, who damn well knew better, knew the risks, or is it for this supposed guilt trip dating back to the slave trade etc, or to prevent something like this from happening again? So buy the iPod, the cell phone, the palm pilot, whatever it is you want, and let the proceeds go to whomever in the poverty stricken lands of wherever.

It's one thing to NOT do anything for others. It's quite another to pour derision on those in a worse state than yourself.

The problems in Africa are directly related to the west, and the west's economic policies make sure they stay there.

Bono's campaign to remove third world debt and loans is the perfect way to even out the situation, because at the moment any profits African nations do make is sent back to the west in IMF interest payments.

Your views would be all fine and dandy if western society had not created the mess, nor was it keeping them there. That's why we as independent citizens can choose where to send out dollars. That's all RED is. It's not a handout. It means if I want a new pair of Converse, I can choose normal ones, or ones that cost the same amount, that go towards AIDS treatment in Africa etc. What's so difficult about that?

I'd advise if people don't agree, just don't post in here. Why kick shit in the faces of the downtrodden? Just take your apathy and go back to watching cable, eating fast food and surfing the internet along with the other 1% of the worlds wealthy that own a personal computer.

Just don't parade in here with a self-rightous bullshit parade that insults some of the dispossesed, sick and downtrodden people of the planet.

Mind-boggling.

[ 11-16-2006, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Leonis]

Originally posted by robertthebard: You know, this is going to sound callous, and maybe a little cold, but I really don't give a rat's ass about what's going on in Africa, when I can walk down my street and see much the same thing. Kids outside with shoes that are falling off their feet, families that can't afford winter clothes for their kids, w/out sacrificing money to feed them. Charity is all good, but let's take care of our own first. So, the only people in the world that can't afford their medications live in Africa? Let me tell you, from first hand experience, that's a load of crap. I can't afford 1/2 the medications this new doctor wants to put me on, w/out having to sacrifice my residence. I already can't pay my bills, and have to have my mom do it, and it's a good thing she's in a position to be able to, or I'd be on the street, playing my guitar on the corner for a few bucks to eat on, assuming I could stand to be outside long enough. You want to see an example of poverty, get out of your comfort zone, and look around your area. I'm sure you'll be able to find someone locally that could really use the help. As Wellard pointed out, there are local charities that could use that dollar.

robertthebard, that's a really great point you make. I too, have had times like this. I've been staring down the barrel of "I have no money, not a cent left, WTF do I do now?" many times. Many times. I did not grow up wealthy, I grew up on the poor side of western finance. My father made what Americans would call "at best" minimum wage. A wife, 3 kids. Minimum wage. How did he look after us? How did I survive also earning +/- minimum wage for years? I also see my own backyard. I lived in it... I'm not advocating neglect of your neighbour, your friends, your family. I'm amazed at how much this has polarised people, particularly negatively. I just brought up a way for people to help others beyond their own experience and suddenly there are people attacking the whole concept of charity - helping others. I am stunned. I didn't think there were so many people who couldn't care less about the suffering of others. Even when I'm suffering my worst, I think of things like a man from Rwanda who managed to escape the quite recent genocide there and told me about a boy, who watched as his father's HEAD was used as a soccer ball for the ausement of his captors/conquerers. I've worked alonside murderers. One of the girls I've loved used to work in (Australia's worst gaol) Long Bay Gaol and the Sydney Police Cells (where everyone arrested in an evening goes). I've never seen such disregard for human life, for human value as what this Rwandan told me. I have great dear friends who are Black, and South African who grew up under apartied. Their stories horrify and astound me.

My whole point is: NO SINGLE HUMAN BEING, REGARDLESS OF THEIR BIRTHPLACE, RELIGION, ECONOMIC STATUS, LOOKS, SENSE OF STYLE, BACKGROUND, FAMILY/CULTURAL/MEDICAL HISTORY
ETC ETC, DESERVES TO BE TREATED ANYTHING LESS THAN HUMAN! Yet our Western/Eastern/Northern/Southern Governments and us as living, working, voting, active citizens allow it, condone it. If I say I feel it's wrong and you say you feel you are a victim, aren't we on the same side? Don't we have a sympathetic heart to make changes? To make things better for you, me and the dude next door? What's so bad about that?

[Leonis]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Mellagar: Is white guilt supposed make me think that I should route a coin from my pocket to give to others? I agree that America has its own ghettos, as does Europe, and China. I agree that its good to help other countries when in need, but eventually a people have to tend to their own needs. Now I'm not saying everyone should say forget them, but a country, like a child, has to be given a chance to grow on its own. Otherwise, you'll be forever supporting them. I find it interesting how profit finds niches wherever it can, even with this RED charity. But I still laugh over this AIDS nonsense. A little protection, and prevention on the part of the people there can go a long way. Now, am I donating to help the child, who was given no options and was born with this problem, the adults, who damn well knew better, knew the risks, or is it for this supposed guilt trip dating back to the slave trade etc, or to prevent something like this from happening again? So buy the iPod, the cell phone, the palm pilot, whatever it is you want, and let the proceeds go to whomever in the poverty stricken lands of wherever.

It's one thing to NOT do anything for others. It's quite another to pour derision on those in a worse state than yourself.

The problems in Africa are directly related to the west, and the west's economic policies make sure they stay there.

Bono's campaign to remove third world debt and loans is the perfect way to even out the situation, because at the moment any profits African nations do make is sent back to the west in IMF interest payments.

Your views would be all fine and dandy if western society had not created the mess, nor was it keeping them there. That's why we as independent citizens can choose where to send out dollars. That's all RED is. It's not a handout. It means if I want a new pair of Converse, I can choose normal ones, or ones that cost the same amount, that go towards AIDS treatment in Africa etc. What's so difficult about that?

I'd advise if people don't agree, just don't post in here. Why kick shit in the faces of the downtrodden? Just take your apathy and go back to watching cable, eating fast food and surfing the internet along with the other 1% of the worlds wealthy that own a personal computer.

Just don't parade in here with a self-rightous bullshit parade that insults some of the dispossesed, sick and downtrodden people of the planet.

Mind-boggling. [/QUOTE]Yes.Yes.Yes. And if anyone thinks we are just brothers agreeing with each other out of a sense of family or pride or the like. I can say, I rarely see this brother. I question him and he questions me. I live a very different life to him and he to me. I would not hesitate to call him up, in this forum, if I fundamentally disagreed with him. And I expect the same from him. So we are simpatico. I agree with your posts in absolute. Continue...

[Mellagar]

I would hardly say derision has been poured upon anyone. Merely an observation of a lacking responsiblity on all fronts is apparent. However, I'm curious as to what this 'pill' is, according to the RED manifesto. Pharmaceutical companies have been using Africa as a testing lab for years, in a similar way that certain western powers spread the opium trade throughout China some time ago for profit. I'm just disconcerted at how long it has taken Africa to pull themselves from the depths. Even South American countries are beginning to realize the power of business, and are using oil money to grow. I'm only thinking aloud here, but its going to take more than Bono and a $300 iPod bought by concerned consumers of the great imperial countries to throw dictators from power, settle tribal disputes that were there long before Western powers were even a glint in time's eye, and make it a happy place to raise children. Its almost like throwing paper cups of water at a raging forest fire. However, I never condone those who give, I personally tend to question more than agree. If RED works to save lives then I say good for them, keep at it, but never think dimly of another just because they give a sign of disagreement.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Mellagar: I would hardly say derision has been poured upon anyone.

Originally posted by Mellagar: But I still laugh over this AIDS nonsense.

[Mellagar]

I laugh at the idea that it some great killing disease sometimes seemingly comparible to ebola or lassa. It is a preventable disease that can be defeated through protection and common sense. To irresponsibility, to lack of common sense, and the knee jerk reaction people have to rush to the rescue, that, I laugh at. Why not buy a couple million boxes of condoms instead of an iPod, or is that not morally and politically correct? Africa is one of the world's largest growing mobile phone markets in the world, with profits ranging into the hundreds of millions. That's American/UK amounts, not African currency. How much of that money, made by those African corporations goes to aid the country's destitute towns and hungry children? How many American corporations give to the ghettos of the ole USA? Its a universal mentality, greed, and it doesn't shy from any one race.