I am not as learned in WWII as many of you but ...

Moiraine · 11-09-2001, 05:32 AM

... I've been thinking, what I know of WWII isn't learned from books, but from the stories my parents and grandparents told me.

I was thinking that if we British, German and French people are generally so adverse to bombing Afghanistan as an answer to the September 11th event, maybe that's because, in a way, we've been there, in the Afghans place. I don't think there is a French or German family who has not deeply suffered from WWII, physically and spiritually, and more than 50 years later, the wounds are still there. We know, in our flesh and by firsthand stories, what it is to be a civilian trapped in a war.

My mother was 9 when the war was declared. Her family lived in Nancy, very near the German frontier, and her father was a military. He went away from almost the full duration of the war, sending a letter now and then to his wife and two daughters, who had to go on living, with the constant fear in their guts, for years ...

My father lived in Nice, his city was farther away from the war, but he got tuberculosis when he was 12, and because of the war, he almost died of it, and had to spend 1 full year in a sanatorium. Because of that, he missed the growth boys go through when they are teens, and stayed small (1m60). I think his life has been forever changed by that.

And they are amongst the lucky ones - nobody died or got crippled other than my father's tuberculosis that almost killed him twice.

I'll be hosting some IW members in a month, among them a British guy (Sir Tainly) and a German guy (Ramon), and I am thinking, how wonderful it is, being able to meet together as friends, given that Sir Tainly's ancestors and mine have likely fought against each others so many times, and that maybe Ramon's grandfather has fought against mine !

I am not sure this post makes sense, but I had to tell what was in my heart anyway ...

[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: Moiraine ]

Hiram Sedai · 11-09-2001, 08:14 AM

Wow, Moiraine. That was interesting. Thanks for posting that. I've always been curious about the survivors of WWII. I think I understand that perspective somewhat.

I tried to trace my lineage back for a couple hundred years and I can say with some certainty that my father's side of the family has been here for some time. So I know that my last name, although Austrian, is not one that was Heer, Volkstrum, SS, or Volksgrenadier.

I've had that type of perspective for quite some time. The curiosity of who's grandparents fought whom. My girlfriend's family is very Italian and they have some members who are 80+ years old. I try to ask them questions about WWII, but they are strangly quiet about it. I'm curious as to which side they were on and things like battles. They know that I'm annoyingly inquisitive, so they are forgiving.

Please share with us how the get-together goes.

Ryanamur · 11-09-2001, 10:07 AM

No Moiraine, your post made perfect sense. It just a testimonial that war doesn't only affect military personnel. Now, just a small correction to your post. It seems that not only French, British and Germans but also Canadians. In fact, it might be a pretty accurate statement to say that only Americans support the bombing (no offence intended to my neighbor and I'm not saying that all Americans support it).

BTW: I know the felling about your grand father, my uncle was a special ops that worked with the French Resistance from 1942-44. He was killed on his extraction day!

Epona · 11-09-2001, 10:53 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Ryanamur:

BTW: I know the felling about your grand father, my uncle was a special ops that worked with the French Resistance from 1942-44. He was killed on his extraction day!

Oh no, that is just dreadful - so near but yet so far.
Moiraine is right, it is very true to say that WWII deeply affected people in Britain, and still has a major impact on culture 2-3 generations on.
My own relatives were living in London, Coventry and Southampton during the war - the 3 most bombed cities. My grandfather wasn't conscripted due to a failed medical and was instead a firefighter in London during the bombing - rescuing people from the rubble etc. (good job too, he really didn't want to go and kill people).
He also met my grandmother during the war - neither of them liked to go into bomb shelters and preferred to stay out watching the bombs drop and that's how they met.

But in terms of English people, the wartime experience has formulated many of the generalisations of the 'English Character' that we hear today - stiff upper lip (ie. don't complain, just get on with life despite the hardship). The idea that you do not waste anything, scraps of food and clothing are reused (which is so English IMHO) came from wartime rationing, which incidentally continued for several years after the war - this attitude was nothing to do with being mean, but that you were only allowed a certain amount of meat/butter/milk/eggs/sugar etc. per week and had to make do.

11-09-2001, 11:00 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Ryanamur:
In fact, it might be a pretty accurate statement to say that only Americans support the bombing (no offence intended to my neighbor and I'm not saying that all Americans support it).

First off, I would like to thank Moiraine for making this profound post and to tell you, Ryanamur that I am really sorry about your uncle!
I lost great-Uncles in WWII on European soil, but we were there to help and casualties were to be expected. Not saying we did not suffer because of it, we did...esp since their children lost their fathers, my father lost his uncles and their mothers lost their sons...just saying that under the circumstances, I am glad that Americans were there to help save some lives.

Regarding the post I quoted, (which could start a whole new thread for discussion BTW

) I think the Japenese Imperial Navy setting course for waters with the intent to back up America's current cause says a lot, esp since they haven't been seen since WWII and then they were not on our side! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Epona, I think it is grand that people know how to be conservative and use that knowledge. [img]smile.gif[/img] It is unfortunate that such valuable lessons have to come from war and I think all people should make it a priority in these days of global pollution on all scales without war making it become a habit of force as opposed to it being a force of habit.

[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: Moni ]

Yorick · 11-09-2001, 11:10 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Ryanamur:
In fact, it might be a pretty accurate statement to say that only Americans support the bombing

I'm Australian and I support the bombing.

Guess you had to be there to not want it to happen again. Either WWII or WTC.

I don't ever wish to see another WTC occur again, and though it grieves me and gives me inner conflict, I truly believe that removing Bin Laden and his harbourers/colleagues is the best course of prevention from such a nightmare reoccurring.

I also don't believe in divorce yet am divorced. Shit happens.
In an ideal world no violence would be needed to prevent Bin Laden from pursuing his Wahabist violence. Heck in an ideal world there would be no war. There would be no divorce.

The ideal world doesn't exist. We have to make do at times with pursuing a course that's the lesser of two evils.

Inaction in this regard is for me a greater evil than the current course. Inaction caused this, allowed Bin Laden to escape accountability for the 1993 WTC explosion and the embassy bombings.

Inaction is death.

If you had to kill a man to stop him raping your daughter/mother/sister/wife would you?

Killing is evil. Nothing justifies killing. It is an evil act.

In this case it is the lesser of two evils.

Moiraine · 11-09-2001, 01:33 PM

Hiram, thanks for supporting me. [img]smile.gif[/img] I can understand your relatives reluctance to talk about the war. My grandfather never never talked about what he did as a military, in either WWII or the Algeria war. We learned only very recently, after his death, by his military papers, that he had taken a great part in organizing the resistance network for the North-East of France. I'm very proud of him, and he'll never know that now ...

The stories I got from WWII come mostly from my parents who were kids at the time. My grandmother also kept very silent about her years of war.

Ryanamur, sorry about your uncle, what a terrible thing ... I didn't want to speak for all people who are against the bombing, or starting a fight in here, just trying to explain why I personnally have trouble supporting the bombing, and why maybe that can relate to the people living in or near my country. When I think about bombing, I see a young woman and her children living in constant fear, for themselves and for their missing husband and father - my grandmother and mother, or an Afghani woman and kids, that's the same ...

Epona, that attitude is not so British, you know ! My grandparents and parents, and even me now, have trouble throwing food or clothes away, I was raised that way too.

Moni, thanks, especially since I hadn't answered your last mail yet, I'm very glad to see that you are not angry at me for all times. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Yorick, Hi !

I hear you, and understand what you are saying, and agree that inaction caused the current mess and inaction must stop, but is there not any other way to deal with this situation than blindly bombing hundreds of civilians ?

[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: Moiraine ]

Yorick · 11-09-2001, 01:53 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Moiraine:
Hiram, thanks for supporting me. [img]smile.gif[/img] I can understand your relatives reluctance to talk about the war. My grandfather never never talked about what he did as a military, in either WWII or the Algeria war. We learned only very recently, after his death, by his military papers, that he had taken a great part in organizing the resistance network for the North-East of France. I'm very proud of him, and he'll never know that now ...

The stories I got from WWII come mostly from my parents who were kids at the time. My grandmother also kept very silent about her years of war.

Yorick, Hi ! I hear you, and understand what you are saying, and agree that inaction caused the current mess and inaction must stop, but is there not any other way to deal with this situation than blindly bombing hundreds of civilians ?

Moiraine, you would think so. If those against the bombing put as much energy into finding and alternate solution as they do criticising, we'd have abundant options. I haven't heard one alternate option that hasn't been tried and found inneffective.

Between inaction and the current choice I choose the current choice. I dearly hope and wish an alternative exists, and wish people were quicker to constructively suggest, rather than destructively condemn.

Regarding relatives in war, my great uncle fought with Montgomery, and my wifes grandfather was in the navy and served in numerous theatres. Many, many nations were impacted heavily by WWII. No one nation has a monopoly on being able to draw from experience to back up a point of view.

Singaporean Chinese can speak about genocide at the hands of the Japanese for example.

I appreciate where you are coming from, but would hope that you remember that innocent Germans died to free your nation from Nazi control. In criticising war, we must surely remember that there is an instigator and a reactionary party.

Who has a greater portion of blame?

Hope you're well Moiraine. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Be safe.

Moiraine · 11-09-2001, 03:54 PM

It's been a long time since I was so neatly told that I was a imbecile. This thread is turning exactly to where I wish it would not. Thus I would like to ask any Mod to close it. Thanks and goodbye.

11-09-2001, 04:00 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Moiraine:
Moni, thanks, especially since I hadn't answered your last mail yet, I'm very glad to see that you are not angry at me for all times. [img]smile.gif[/img]

No need to answer it at all, Moiraine (unless you want the last word

) I am not one to stay angry at anyone, minutes pass and new minutes to live arrive...we have to make the best of them all and I hope we never butt heads again in a way that angers either of us because I really do think you to be a wonderful person. [img]smile.gif[/img]

11-09-2001, 05:32 AM	#1
Moiraine Anubis Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Up in the Freedomland Alps Age: 60 Posts: 2,474	... I've been thinking, what I know of WWII isn't learned from books, but from the stories my parents and grandparents told me. I was thinking that if we British, German and French people are generally so adverse to bombing Afghanistan as an answer to the September 11th event, maybe that's because, in a way, we've been there, in the Afghans place. I don't think there is a French or German family who has not deeply suffered from WWII, physically and spiritually, and more than 50 years later, the wounds are still there. We know, in our flesh and by firsthand stories, what it is to be a civilian trapped in a war. My mother was 9 when the war was declared. Her family lived in Nancy, very near the German frontier, and her father was a military. He went away from almost the full duration of the war, sending a letter now and then to his wife and two daughters, who had to go on living, with the constant fear in their guts, for years ... My father lived in Nice, his city was farther away from the war, but he got tuberculosis when he was 12, and because of the war, he almost died of it, and had to spend 1 full year in a sanatorium. Because of that, he missed the growth boys go through when they are teens, and stayed small (1m60). I think his life has been forever changed by that. And they are amongst the lucky ones - nobody died or got crippled other than my father's tuberculosis that almost killed him twice. I'll be hosting some IW members in a month, among them a British guy (Sir Tainly) and a German guy (Ramon), and I am thinking, how wonderful it is, being able to meet together as friends, given that Sir Tainly's ancestors and mine have likely fought against each others so many times, and that maybe Ramon's grandfather has fought against mine ! I am not sure this post makes sense, but I had to tell what was in my heart anyway ... [ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: Moiraine ] __________________ [img]\"http://grumble.free.fr/img/romuald.gif\" alt=\" - \" /><br /><br />The missing link between ape and man is us.

11-09-2001, 08:14 AM	#2
Hiram Sedai Emerald Dragon Join Date: October 8, 2001 Location: Georgia Age: 55 Posts: 918	Wow, Moiraine. That was interesting. Thanks for posting that. I've always been curious about the survivors of WWII. I think I understand that perspective somewhat. I tried to trace my lineage back for a couple hundred years and I can say with some certainty that my father's side of the family has been here for some time. So I know that my last name, although Austrian, is not one that was Heer, Volkstrum, SS, or Volksgrenadier. I've had that type of perspective for quite some time. The curiosity of who's grandparents fought whom. My girlfriend's family is very Italian and they have some members who are 80+ years old. I try to ask them questions about WWII, but they are strangly quiet about it. I'm curious as to which side they were on and things like battles. They know that I'm annoyingly inquisitive, so they are forgiving. Please share with us how the get-together goes. __________________ [url]\"http://www.xsorbit3.com/users/HADB/index.cgi?board=general&action=logout\" target=\"_blank\">HADB Messageboard Board</a><br /><br />Hopelessly Pedantic

11-09-2001, 10:07 AM	#3
Ryanamur Fzoul Chembryl Join Date: March 29, 2001 Location: Montréal, Canada Age: 49 Posts: 1,763	No Moiraine, your post made perfect sense. It just a testimonial that war doesn't only affect military personnel. Now, just a small correction to your post. It seems that not only French, British and Germans but also Canadians. In fact, it might be a pretty accurate statement to say that only Americans support the bombing (no offence intended to my neighbor and I'm not saying that all Americans support it). BTW: I know the felling about your grand father, my uncle was a special ops that worked with the French Resistance from 1942-44. He was killed on his extraction day! __________________ An idiot will only play Russian roulette with an automatic pistol! Thank God they only do it once! <img border=\"0\" title=\"\" alt=\"[Smile]\" src=\"smile.gif\" />

11-09-2001, 10:53 AM	#4
Epona Zartan Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: London, England Age: 53 Posts: 5,164	quote: Originally posted by Ryanamur: BTW: I know the felling about your grand father, my uncle was a special ops that worked with the French Resistance from 1942-44. He was killed on his extraction day! Oh no, that is just dreadful - so near but yet so far. Moiraine is right, it is very true to say that WWII deeply affected people in Britain, and still has a major impact on culture 2-3 generations on. My own relatives were living in London, Coventry and Southampton during the war - the 3 most bombed cities. My grandfather wasn't conscripted due to a failed medical and was instead a firefighter in London during the bombing - rescuing people from the rubble etc. (good job too, he really didn't want to go and kill people). He also met my grandmother during the war - neither of them liked to go into bomb shelters and preferred to stay out watching the bombs drop and that's how they met. But in terms of English people, the wartime experience has formulated many of the generalisations of the 'English Character' that we hear today - stiff upper lip (ie. don't complain, just get on with life despite the hardship). The idea that you do not waste anything, scraps of food and clothing are reused (which is so English IMHO) came from wartime rationing, which incidentally continued for several years after the war - this attitude was nothing to do with being mean, but that you were only allowed a certain amount of meat/butter/milk/eggs/sugar etc. per week and had to make do. __________________ [img]\"http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/epona.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

11-09-2001, 11:00 AM	#5
Moni Guest Posts: n/a	quote: Originally posted by Ryanamur: In fact, it might be a pretty accurate statement to say that only Americans support the bombing (no offence intended to my neighbor and I'm not saying that all Americans support it). First off, I would like to thank Moiraine for making this profound post and to tell you, Ryanamur that I am really sorry about your uncle! I lost great-Uncles in WWII on European soil, but we were there to help and casualties were to be expected. Not saying we did not suffer because of it, we did...esp since their children lost their fathers, my father lost his uncles and their mothers lost their sons...just saying that under the circumstances, I am glad that Americans were there to help save some lives. Regarding the post I quoted, (which could start a whole new thread for discussion BTW ) I think the Japenese Imperial Navy setting course for waters with the intent to back up America's current cause says a lot, esp since they haven't been seen since WWII and then they were not on our side! [img]smile.gif[/img] Epona, I think it is grand that people know how to be conservative and use that knowledge. [img]smile.gif[/img] It is unfortunate that such valuable lessons have to come from war and I think all people should make it a priority in these days of global pollution on all scales without war making it become a habit of force as opposed to it being a force of habit. [ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: Moni ]

11-09-2001, 11:10 AM	#6
Yorick Very Mad Bird Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam) Age: 52 Posts: 9,246	quote: Originally posted by Ryanamur: In fact, it might be a pretty accurate statement to say that only Americans support the bombing I'm Australian and I support the bombing. Guess you had to be there to not want it to happen again. Either WWII or WTC. I don't ever wish to see another WTC occur again, and though it grieves me and gives me inner conflict, I truly believe that removing Bin Laden and his harbourers/colleagues is the best course of prevention from such a nightmare reoccurring. I also don't believe in divorce yet am divorced. Shit happens. In an ideal world no violence would be needed to prevent Bin Laden from pursuing his Wahabist violence. Heck in an ideal world there would be no war. There would be no divorce. The ideal world doesn't exist. We have to make do at times with pursuing a course that's the lesser of two evils. Inaction in this regard is for me a greater evil than the current course. Inaction caused this, allowed Bin Laden to escape accountability for the 1993 WTC explosion and the embassy bombings. Inaction is death. If you had to kill a man to stop him raping your daughter/mother/sister/wife would you? Killing is evil. Nothing justifies killing. It is an evil act. In this case it is the lesser of two evils. __________________ http://www.hughwilson.com

11-09-2001, 01:33 PM	#7
Moiraine Anubis Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Up in the Freedomland Alps Age: 60 Posts: 2,474	Hiram, thanks for supporting me. [img]smile.gif[/img] I can understand your relatives reluctance to talk about the war. My grandfather never never talked about what he did as a military, in either WWII or the Algeria war. We learned only very recently, after his death, by his military papers, that he had taken a great part in organizing the resistance network for the North-East of France. I'm very proud of him, and he'll never know that now ... The stories I got from WWII come mostly from my parents who were kids at the time. My grandmother also kept very silent about her years of war. Ryanamur, sorry about your uncle, what a terrible thing ... I didn't want to speak for all people who are against the bombing, or starting a fight in here, just trying to explain why I personnally have trouble supporting the bombing, and why maybe that can relate to the people living in or near my country. When I think about bombing, I see a young woman and her children living in constant fear, for themselves and for their missing husband and father - my grandmother and mother, or an Afghani woman and kids, that's the same ... Epona, that attitude is not so British, you know ! My grandparents and parents, and even me now, have trouble throwing food or clothes away, I was raised that way too. Moni, thanks, especially since I hadn't answered your last mail yet, I'm very glad to see that you are not angry at me for all times. [img]smile.gif[/img] Yorick, Hi ! I hear you, and understand what you are saying, and agree that inaction caused the current mess and inaction must stop, but is there not any other way to deal with this situation than blindly bombing hundreds of civilians ? [ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: Moiraine ] __________________ [img]\"http://grumble.free.fr/img/romuald.gif\" alt=\" - \" /><br /><br />The missing link between ape and man is us.

11-09-2001, 01:53 PM	#8
Yorick Very Mad Bird Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam) Age: 52 Posts: 9,246	quote: Originally posted by Moiraine: Hiram, thanks for supporting me. [img]smile.gif[/img] I can understand your relatives reluctance to talk about the war. My grandfather never never talked about what he did as a military, in either WWII or the Algeria war. We learned only very recently, after his death, by his military papers, that he had taken a great part in organizing the resistance network for the North-East of France. I'm very proud of him, and he'll never know that now ... The stories I got from WWII come mostly from my parents who were kids at the time. My grandmother also kept very silent about her years of war. Yorick, Hi ! I hear you, and understand what you are saying, and agree that inaction caused the current mess and inaction must stop, but is there not any other way to deal with this situation than blindly bombing hundreds of civilians ? Moiraine, you would think so. If those against the bombing put as much energy into finding and alternate solution as they do criticising, we'd have abundant options. I haven't heard one alternate option that hasn't been tried and found inneffective. Between inaction and the current choice I choose the current choice. I dearly hope and wish an alternative exists, and wish people were quicker to constructively suggest, rather than destructively condemn. Regarding relatives in war, my great uncle fought with Montgomery, and my wifes grandfather was in the navy and served in numerous theatres. Many, many nations were impacted heavily by WWII. No one nation has a monopoly on being able to draw from experience to back up a point of view. Singaporean Chinese can speak about genocide at the hands of the Japanese for example. I appreciate where you are coming from, but would hope that you remember that innocent Germans died to free your nation from Nazi control. In criticising war, we must surely remember that there is an instigator and a reactionary party. Who has a greater portion of blame? Hope you're well Moiraine. [img]smile.gif[/img] Be safe. __________________ http://www.hughwilson.com

11-09-2001, 03:54 PM	#9
Moiraine Anubis Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Up in the Freedomland Alps Age: 60 Posts: 2,474	It's been a long time since I was so neatly told that I was a imbecile. This thread is turning exactly to where I wish it would not. Thus I would like to ask any Mod to close it. Thanks and goodbye. __________________ [img]\"http://grumble.free.fr/img/romuald.gif\" alt=\" - \" /><br /><br />The missing link between ape and man is us.

11-09-2001, 04:00 PM	#10
Moni Guest Posts: n/a	quote: Originally posted by Moiraine: Moni, thanks, especially since I hadn't answered your last mail yet, I'm very glad to see that you are not angry at me for all times. [img]smile.gif[/img] No need to answer it at all, Moiraine (unless you want the last word ) I am not one to stay angry at anyone, minutes pass and new minutes to live arrive...we have to make the best of them all and I hope we never butt heads again in a way that angers either of us because I really do think you to be a wonderful person. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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